December 2015 - XEmacs-Beta - XEmacs Mailing List Archives

Re: XEmacs at a crossroads 8 years, 11 months

Raymond Toy

>>>>> "Stephen" == Stephen J Turnbull <stephen(a)xemacs.org> writes: Stephen> We all do value XEmacs, its history, the codebase, and you, our Stephen> community. We are sad that XEmacs has fallen so far out of Stephen> competition with GNU Emacs, but it's time to admit that is the case, Stephen> and think about what we want to do now. Several alternative paths Stephen> have been suggested: I never thought of it being a competition (at least not for many, many years). Stephen> 1. Close up shop and release the resources to other projects. What does that really mean, since XEmacs is open source? Stephen> 2. Close up shop and move en masse to GNU Emacs development. Stephen> 3. Fork current GNU Emacs, and gradually recreate an XEmacs- Stephen> flavored GNU-Emacs-compatible language and editor. Stephen> 4. Maintain infrastructure as a "caretaker" project, for the Stephen> benefit of continuing users, and in case somebody wants to Stephen> pick up the ball. [snip] Stephen> We would like to hear your thoughts. If you have private patches you Stephen> can contribute to XEmacs 21.5, please let us know about them. They Stephen> can be integrated. XEmacs 21.4 is very near end-of-life, but Vin Stephen> Shelton is still maintaining it. Stephen> We thank you for your support and contributions over the years! And thank you and all of the contributors over the many years! As a user from the original Lucid Emacs days, this is a rather sad day. I have never switched to Emacs because there was never a reason to. XEmacs always did everything I needed to do (fairly limited). I blame myself for this state of affairs for not contributing more. But like all of you, other things get in the way. I don't have any suggestions on the way forward, but [3] seems like not such a good idea. Best wishes to all of you and many thanks for your hard work! -- Ray _______________________________________________ XEmacs-Beta mailing list XEmacs-Beta(a)xemacs.org http://lists.xemacs.org/mailman/listinfo/xemacs-beta

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Re: XEmacs at a crossroads 8 years, 11 months

Marcus Harnisch

Hi Steve The situation you describe is no news to anyone involved in the XEmacs project. The project has been in this very state for many years now with small bursts of activity. Nothing more can be expected from contributors putting their spare time into a project. Thank you all for this. "Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen(a)xemacs.org> writes: > Several alternative paths have been suggested: > > 1. Close up shop and release the resources to other projects. Which resources? > 2. Close up shop and move en masse to GNU Emacs development. Probably not. Those who considered that as an option left a long time ago. > 3. Fork current GNU Emacs, and gradually recreate an XEmacs- > flavored GNU-Emacs-compatible language and editor. Unrealistic, IMHO. The core features that differentiate XEmacs are fundamental and developers would presumably have a lot of work ahead of them recreating these in a fork. > 4. Maintain infrastructure as a "caretaker" project, for the > benefit of continuing users, and in case somebody wants to > pick up the ball. That'd be my personal preference. Basically just leave it the way it is. Shout if you need help for keeping life-support going or to tell us all to fork the repo in case it is taken down. Perhaps someday a prince will come and kiss Sleeping Beauty. Cheers Marcus _______________________________________________ XEmacs-Beta mailing list XEmacs-Beta(a)xemacs.org http://lists.xemacs.org/mailman/listinfo/xemacs-beta

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Re: cmp GNU/Emacs lucid with Xemacs 21.5 configure scripts 8 years, 11 months

Uwe Brauer

>>> "Andrés" == Andrés Ramírez <sunshavi(a)fastmail.fm> writes: > Regards > ps: just for the record on my setup menu-bar, toolbar, scrollbar are > disabled. On the screenshot I started emacs with "-Q" emacs -q (scrollbar black) emacs -Q (scrollbar grey-white) So there is some bizarre system-init file somewhere which screws up the scrollbar. Any idea where? Uwe _______________________________________________ XEmacs-Beta mailing list XEmacs-Beta(a)xemacs.org http://lists.xemacs.org/mailman/listinfo/xemacs-beta

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Re: cmp GNU/Emacs lucid with Xemacs 21.5 configure scripts 8 years, 11 months

Uwe Brauer

> Hi Uwe. My comments below. > My version: > extra/libxaw 1.0.13-1 [installed] > X11 Athena Widget library Ok mine is 1.0.7-1 which is a bit older. > Nothing special for the scrollbar > Btw, I have noticed in your screenshot even the toolbar is grayed. Are > You using a theme on your destop environment?. Well I am using TDE, trinity a KDE3 fork (Kubuntu) > Or perhaps smth on > "~/.Xdefaults"? Yes I have .Xdefaults setting, but the same for Xemacs as for GNU emacs, but only the GNU emacs scrollbar is black, here are my settings: XEmacs.foreground: black XEmacs.background: grey99 XEmacs.font: -*-courier-bold-r-*-*-18-180-*-*-*-*-*-* XEmacs.geometry: 95x43+20+5 Emacs.foreground: black Emacs.background: grey98 Emacs.font: -*-courier-bold-r-*-*-18-180-*-*-*-*-*-* Emacs.geometry:105x63+20+5 > Regards > ps: just for the record on my setup menu-bar, toolbar, scrollbar are > disabled. On the screenshot I started emacs with "-Q" Aha, when I do this for emacs, indeed the scrollbar is «normal» grey. Now I am puzzled, what could that be? BTW while with the option lucid, the menus/widget are very Xemacs like, that menus itself, that is the font of them are not they are the same small font-difficult-to-read entries as always. _______________________________________________ XEmacs-Beta mailing list XEmacs-Beta(a)xemacs.org http://lists.xemacs.org/mailman/listinfo/xemacs-beta

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Re: cmp GNU/Emacs lucid with Xemacs 21.5 configure scripts 8 years, 11 months

Uwe Brauer

>>> "Andrés" == Andrés Ramírez <sunshavi(a)fastmail.fm> writes: Hi Andrés > Hi Uwe. > This is my emacs-lucid-git configure script: > ./configure \ > --prefix=/usr \ > --sysconfdir=/etc \ > --libexecdir=/usr/lib \ > --localstatedir=/var \ > --with-x-toolkit=lucid \ > --mandir=/usr/share/man \ > --pdfdir=/usr/share/doc/emacs/pdf \ > --with-sound \ > --without-gconf \ > --with-xft > complete Pkgbuild here: > https://aur.archlinux.org/cgit/aur.git/tree/PKGBUILD?h=emacs-lucid-git That is odd as you can see from my screenshot the scrollbar is completely black and therefore almost useless. I will try to run --with-x-toolkit=lucid --without-gconf --with-xft although I think the xft is per default. Maybe my xaw3dg is too old? Or to you have a setting for the scrollbar? Thanks Uwe _______________________________________________ XEmacs-Beta mailing list XEmacs-Beta(a)xemacs.org http://lists.xemacs.org/mailman/listinfo/xemacs-beta

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Re: XEmacs at a crossroads 8 years, 11 months

Stephen J. Turnbull

Andrés Ramírez writes: > I have always thought why Lucid-x-toolkit is never updated? Well, Lucid basically was out of business 20 years ago. The version we have in XEmacs has been maintained and upgraded over the years (eg, to add tabs, progress bars, and generic "native" widgets), and I am sure it has diverged substantially from the version GNU Emacs uses. I don't know how much they've improved their version but I know they haven't added the additional widget support we have. > How the Lucid-x-toolkit got on GNU/Emacs? I don't know; maybe the record is in their repo history. The rest of Lucid Emacs was FSF-assigned, but curiously enough, this is the only part of Lucid Emacs that was not assigned to the FSF (it was used in other parts of the Lucid Energize suite, so they wouldn't let it go, I guess). Even more curiously, RMS let it in; I don't know who owns those copyrights now. (Maybe Richard Gabriel? yes, Richard "Worse Is Better" Gabriel.) > Why there is no a 'prelude' (dot emacs distribution) equivalent or > something like that, just for downloading Xemacs, another tarball and > enjoy the full Xemacs experience quickly? (even downloading > automatically some mule-packages from the web) In 2000, the logic was, Windows, MSFT is no help and you gotta buy a compiler, OK, we'll provide an installer. Otherwise, all the distros have it in their packages. It doesn't get quicker than that. After that, we lost manpower and become ever more dependent on the distros though we still > ps: that Lucid toolkit is a great piece of sw. It is still relevant > on 2015. And is going to be as long as the gtk bug is not closed > (not going to be closed on the near future) Hard to believe it's 25 years old, isn't it? The only problem I have with Lucid is that it's full of Lisp idioms ... but it's not part of Emacs Lisp, it's a whole extra layer of API. _______________________________________________ XEmacs-Beta mailing list XEmacs-Beta(a)xemacs.org http://lists.xemacs.org/mailman/listinfo/xemacs-beta

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cmp GNU/Emacs lucid with Xemacs 21.5 configure scripts (was: XEmacs at a crossroads) 8 years, 11 months

Andrés Ramírez

Hi Uwe. This is my emacs-lucid-git configure script: --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--- ./configure \ --prefix=/usr \ --sysconfdir=/etc \ --libexecdir=/usr/lib \ --localstatedir=/var \ --with-x-toolkit=lucid \ --mandir=/usr/share/man \ --pdfdir=/usr/share/doc/emacs/pdf \ --with-sound \ --without-gconf \ --with-xft --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--- complete Pkgbuild here: https://aur.archlinux.org/cgit/aur.git/tree/PKGBUILD?h=emacs-lucid-git This is my xemacs configure script: --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--- ./configure --build="${CHOST}" --prefix=/usr --with-dynamic \ --without-postgresql --with-athena=xaw \ --with-database=gdbm --without-ldap \ --enable-menubars=lucid --enable-scrollbars=lucid \ --enable-widgets=athena --enable-dialogs=athena \ --enable-external-widget \ --with-jpeg --with-png --with-tiff \ --with-ncurses --with-pop --with-xfs --disable-sound \ --infodir=/usr/share/info \ --with-mule \ --mandir=/usr/share/man/man1 --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--- https://projects.archlinux.org/svntogit/community.git/tree/trunk/PKGBUILD... Regards _______________________________________________ XEmacs-Beta mailing list XEmacs-Beta(a)xemacs.org http://lists.xemacs.org/mailman/listinfo/xemacs-beta

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Re: XEmacs at a crossroads 8 years, 11 months

Uwe Brauer

>>> "Andrés" == Andrés Ramírez <sunshavi(a)fastmail.fm> writes: > Hi There. >> Aha, I did not know about it. I will try out. Does it looks closer to >> Xemacs this way? > See it by yourself. (taken from a vncviewer the only way of getting the > menus on an screenshot) strange, for me it seems the other way around. Could you send me your configure options for GNU emacs please. I configured GNU emacs ./configure --prefix=/opt/emacs25/ --with-x-toolkit=lucid here is the screenshot And I configured xemacs with auto-apt run ./configure --with-mule --with-widgets --with-athena=3d --with-xpm --with-xface --with-database=berkdb --with-error-checking=none --with-debug=yes --with-xim=xlib --with-xim=xlib --with-png --with-zlib --with-jpeg --with-gif --with-tiff Here is the screenshot. _______________________________________________ XEmacs-Beta mailing list XEmacs-Beta(a)xemacs.org http://lists.xemacs.org/mailman/listinfo/xemacs-beta

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Re: XEmacs at a crossroads 8 years, 11 months

Uwe Brauer

> Hi Guys. Mi comments below. > On Tue, 01 Dec 2015 21:36:36 -0500, > Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > I use this GNU/Emacs version: > GNU Emacs 25.0.50.1 (i686-pc-linux-gnu, X toolkit, Xaw scroll bars) of > 2015-04-21 on wari > That is the Lucid version. Aha, I did not know about it. I will try out. Does it looks closer to Xemacs this way? Uwe Brauer _______________________________________________ XEmacs-Beta mailing list XEmacs-Beta(a)xemacs.org http://lists.xemacs.org/mailman/listinfo/xemacs-beta

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Summary of XEmacs Issue Tracking System Issues 8 years, 11 months

XEmacs Issue Tracking System

ACTIVITY SUMMARY (2015-11-24 - 2015-12-01) XEmacs Issue Tracking System at http://tracker.xemacs.org/XEmacs/its/ To view or respond to any of the issues listed below, click on the issue number. Do NOT respond to this message. 573 open ( +0) / 319 closed ( +0) / 892 total ( +0) Open issues with patches: 13 Average duration of open issues: 2257 days. Median duration of open issues: 2454 days. Open Issues Breakdown new 265 ( +0) deferred 6 ( +0) napping 3 ( +0) verified 58 ( +0) assigned 145 ( +0) committed 19 ( +0) documented 3 ( +0) done/needs work 15 ( +0) _______________________________________________ XEmacs-Beta mailing list XEmacs-Beta(a)xemacs.org http://lists.xemacs.org/mailman/listinfo/xemacs-beta

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