August 1999 - XEmacs-Beta - XEmacs Mailing List Archives

Re: A little thing that keeps me using emacs not xemacs sometimes 25 years, 3 months

Adrian Aichner

>>>>> "Michael" == Michael Sperber <sperber(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> writes: >>>>> "Hans" == Hans Reiser <reiser(a)idiom.com> writes: Hans> I use meta-q a lot. emacs, but not xemacs, understands that Hans> <p> in html-mode Michael> you're having/not having a problem with. I also don't Michael> have a clue what you mean by "understand". Perhaps paragraph-start and paragraph-separate are ill defined for the HTML mode Hans refers to. Now which mode was that again, Hans? ;-> Hans, while in the buffer, please do this: M-x describe-mode Regards, Adrian C-h m (describe-mode) Michael> -- Michael> Cheers =8-} Chipsy Michael> Friede, Völkerverständigung und überhaupt blabla

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Re: A little thing that keeps me using emacs not xemacs sometimes 25 years, 3 months

Michael Sperber

>>>>> "Hans" == Hans Reiser <reiser(a)idiom.com> writes: Hans> meta-q does not join separate paragraphs. In emacs it interprets <p> as being a Hans> paragraph separator. Hans> I refer to whatever mode you get into when you open fu.html using the sumo package Hans> set. This will get you PSGML, which in some ways works differentl from other HTML modes. In particular, it is not shipped with GNU Emacs. (It is considerably more powerful than most other HTML modes, though.) You might want to try hm--html which should also be in the sumo. Does anyone know what HTML mode is shipped with FSFmacs these days? -- Cheers =8-} Chipsy Friede, Völkerverständigung und überhaupt blabla

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Re: A little thing that keeps me using emacs not xemacs sometimes 25 years, 3 months

Michael Sperber

>>>>> "Hans" == Hans Reiser <reiser(a)idiom.com> writes: Hans> I use meta-q a lot. emacs, but not xemacs, understands that <p> in html-mode Hans> separates paragraphs. xemacs has a tendency to take an entire html document Hans> and turn it into one paragraph. Hans> Any chance of borrowing more emacs code to fix this? There are several HTML modes both for GNU Emacs and XEmacs. You need to be more specific as to which ones you're having/not having a problem with. I also don't have a clue what you mean by "understand". -- Cheers =8-} Chipsy Friede, Völkerverständigung und überhaupt blabla

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Re: kde-xemacs or gnome-xemacs? 25 years, 3 months

SL Baur

This probably needs to get added to the FAQ. Gerald Gutierrez <gutier(a)intergate.bc.ca> writes in xemacs-beta(a)xemacs.org: > Hi all. > Has there been any thought going into the possibility of having a > gnome-aware or kde-aware XEmacs? Such would allow XEmacs to visually > fit into its surroundings via theming and would allow people to > drag-and-drop stuff for editing, amongst other things. We have several flavors of drag-and-drop already implemented. > Is this technically difficult to achieve? At the moment, yes. As I understand it, gtk does not use the standard Xt event loop and XEmacs requires it. Qt uses C++ constructors and destructors and thus is impossible to use under the current XEmacs architecture. If the other desktop features can be accessed without using the base libraries, it might be possible to have support for them quicker. I have no idea if this is possible or not. I've been trying to build the latest stable KDE for testing, but it does not appear to be buildable with gcc-2.95, at least on Solaris.

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Re: How can xemacs have been made so hard to install? Do the developers have any clue it is needlessly hard/undocumented? How do I autoload all libraries? 25 years, 3 months

Jan Vroonhof

The following message is a courtesy copy of an article that has been posted to comp.emacs.xemacs as well. [To the XEmacs team. Why is Didier's announcement not on the FTP site?] Hans Reiser <reiser(a)idiom.com> writes: > What in the world possessed them to make it necessary to get five > separate tarballs, and then assemble them together without any > adequate instructions on how to do it? In fact can you get away with only two files. What you seem to have missed is the release announcement: http://www.xemacs.org/list-archives/xemacs/9905/msg00648.html This is supposed to be available as a README too, but it seems to be missing. You also seem to be have README.packages which does feature in at least 3 places. Among others http://www.xemacs.org/packages/guide.html > The last thing I want to do is pick and choose elisp packages, do these guys > have a 386 with a ten meg hard drive on their desks? Do they think I have > nothing but time on my hands? No but other people want to. There's more people in the world than you. If you don't want that, use the Sumo. > info, etc., subdirectories in /usr/src/xemacs-21.1.4? I still don't > know, so I tried both, but if somebody knows, I am curious. They are prebuild parts of the source. They go wherever you unpackaged the source. "make install" will copy them to /usr/local/lib > So now what I have is an xemacs in which nothing autoloads, none of the > packages. Why? What do I do to get it to load every package? Read README.packages. If it is in the right place XEmacs will pick them up automatically. > Why can't these guys just create one tarball with everything, and let me type > some finite well documented series of commands, you know, like "cd /usr/src; tar > xfvz xemacs-everything-21.1.4.tgz; ./configure; make; make install; xemacs"? > Why does it have to be more complicated than that? If you can live with two tarballs here is the complete installation instructions (for a no-mule XEmacs). cd /usr/src tar xzf xemacs-21.1.4.tar.gz cd xemacs-21.1.4 ./configure make make install cd /usr/local/lib/xemacs tar xzf xemacs-sumo.tar.gz But please try and read the two links above. > If there is a README I missed, please let me know, but I fear there is not. As i said you missed two (with one being not your fault). Jan P.S. The package index signing issues is because we fell into a trap set for us set for us by RSA inc, The US government and the designers of PGP all working together. This will (hopefully) soon be resolved.

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jre vs. c-basic-offset 25 years, 3 months

Neal D. Becker

Is it just me - or does loading jre change c-basic-offset to 4? If so, I'd say that's just plain rude.

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CVS, www.xemacs.org, and not solving the problem ( was Re: Yeah! Using instructions missing from the README, xemacs installed! (was Re: How can xemacs have been made so hard to install? Do the developers have any clue it is needlessly hard/undocumented?)) 25 years, 3 months

john s jacobs anderson

[ most personal followups removed; xemacs-webmaint added. ] [ *META* could we please cc: xemacs-webmaint or webmaster(a)xemacs.org when we start jawing about the web site? ] [ META2 hey i'm the new guy blah blah blah ] Andy Piper <andy(a)xemacs.org> writes: > At 10:03 AM 8/20/99 +0200, Jan Vroonhof wrote: > >2. Stick the website under CVS and have the www.xemacs.org server > > check it out every night. > > I like this idea a lot. I've been thinking about this. I initially didn't like the idea, then didn't care, and now I'm back to not liking it again. Sure, on first blush it seems to solve the problem by distributing the update burden over a larger number of people. It really doesn't, however. You've still got to have a small number (ultimately one) of people who make critical decisions. That person or small group of people is going to be the 'core' group that keeps the site going, and CVS makes their lives *harder*. Not to stomp on toes, or anything, but in the long run, *CONTENT* *IS* *EASY*. And CVS only simplies content addition. Achieving an intelligent architecture for the site, a consistent look, and making it easy to use are actually _complicated_ by CVS, because you've got to have somebody checking to make sure that everybody's using the correct site template, and putting things where they belong, etc., etc. A large part of the problem with the web site boils down to the fact that code-writers (i.e., the developers) think about information structures in a fundamentally different way than non-code-writers (i.e., the users). [ see _The_Inmates_Are_Running_The_Asylum_ for more.] The problem with the web site is in the process of being dealt with. I'm on the case; there are others. Attention has been drawn to the problem; don't make it worse by continuing to focus on it after people have said they'll get it fixed. (I.e., don't joggle our elbows as we're working!) Give us a bit of time (like a couple weeks or so) to make some changes. SUMMARY MESSAGE FROM A WEB SITE VOLUNTEER: Implementing a whole bunch of cruft (like CVS, IMHO) is only going to make the whole thing messier in the long run. All IMHO, of course. john. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- John S Jacobs Anderson jacobs(a)azstarnet.com http://www.treefort.org/~jacobs/ <-- GeneHack:bioinfo*linux*opinion

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Re: No gutter visible under AIX / X11 25 years, 3 months

Michael Sperber

>>>>> "APA" == Adrian Aichner <aichner(a)ecf.teradyne.com> writes: >>>>> "ALTMARK" == ALTMARK <ALTMARK(a)de.ibm.com> writes: ALTMARK> Thanks for the advice! I think, for the moment I'll stay ALTMARK> with the tarballs as setting up efs to use cvs seems to APA> Hello Markus, APA> although I have both installed I think all you need is to install CVS APA> from http://download.cyclic.com/cyclic-pages/howget.html APA> Then just do a APA> cvs login APA> cvs checkout APA> as documented on APA> http:/cvs.xemacs.org/ APA> Many happy cvs update-s thereafter! He *did* say "firewall" ... This is not that simple. -- Cheers =8-} Chipsy Friede, Völkerverständigung und überhaupt blabla

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Re: Yeah! Using instructions missing from the README, xemacs installed! (was Re: How can xemacs have been made so hard to install? Do the developers have any clue it is needlessly hard/undocumented?) 25 years, 3 months

Jan Vroonhof

Ben Wing <ben(a)xemacs.org> writes: > that the current maintainers do not seem interested in putting in the > time to fix some of the basic problems with documentation, broken > READMEs, a very out-of-date web site, etc. It is often claimed that > "there is no time" to work on these things. This is obviously a bogus > claim, however, because plenty of other things do get worked on, and > most of these things are much less important (but often more > interesting) than these basic maintenance issues. It does not help to counter bogus arguments with other bogus ones. The time to work on the web site is not exchangeable with time to work on debugging and/or development. The website requires constant attention while you can do development using the occasional allnighter. Thus maintaining a website is much more likely to suffer from job pressure etc. However what I think is the major problem is access, just look at the numbers (these are inaccurate guesses, but that is irrelevant). 10^6 users. 10^3 users of beta versions 10^2 xemacs-beta subscribers. 10 people with CVS access 2 release builders 1 guy (now 2) to maintain the website. Development is shared over at least 10 persons, but the website hinges on only one! If you look at other projects that do have their websites in good shape (Debian, EGCS): They have their website under CVS too! I think the problem is not that the documentation doesn't get written. (Feel free to correct me, but I think that Didier's release announcement and my README.packages are (for Unix builds) decent getting started documentation). The problem is that the documentation has not been getting to the right places, or at least much to slowly (the website, the c.e.xemacs newsgroup, the ftp directory). Its mostly on the xemacs-announce list, but nobody seems to read that. For me long-term fixes look like 1. Ditch the xemacs-announce list (or at least gate it to c.e.xemacs). 2. Stick the website under CVS and have the www.xemacs.org server check it out every night. Jan P.S. Yes the package system (or more precisely the way they are released and distributed) has serious problems, but I think the above problems are more fundamental.

3 participants
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Re: No gutter visible under AIX / X11 25 years, 3 months

Adrian Aichner

>>>>> "ALTMARK" == ALTMARK <ALTMARK(a)de.ibm.com> writes: ALTMARK> Thanks for the advice! I think, for the moment I'll stay ALTMARK> with the tarballs as setting up efs to use cvs seems to Hello Markus, although I have both installed I think all you need is to install CVS from http://download.cyclic.com/cyclic-pages/howget.html Then just do a cvs login cvs checkout as documented on http:/cvs.xemacs.org/ Many happy cvs update-s thereafter! Adrian ALTMARK> be not that simple for our site (firewall, etc.). Thus I ALTMARK> will wait full of expectation for the b20 tarball ... ALTMARK> Markus ALTMARK> -------------------------------------------------------------- ALTMARK> Dr Andy Piper ALTMARK> Senior Consultant Architect, BEA Systems Ltd

2 participants
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XEmacs-Beta August 1999