SY> |--==> "VS" == Ville Skytt <Ville> writes: VS> Anyone know where are the DTDs included in psgml's etc/ originally VS> from? They're not in the upstream psgml distribution. I'd like VS> to make some updates there. SY> The upstream maintainer might be able to tell you. Or maybe Adrian, SY> he probably uses PSGML more than anyone else around here. :-) I think we'll have to ask Steven. Hi Steven, can you please comment? Best regards, Adrian SY> -- SY> |---<Steve Youngs>---------------<GnuPG KeyID: 10D5C9C5>---| SY> | XEmacs - It's not just an editor. | SY> | It's a way of life. | SY> |------------------------------------&lt;youngs(a)xemacs.org&gt;---| -- Adrian Aichner mailto:adrian＠xemacs.org http://www.xemacs.org/

"Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen(a)xemacs.org&gt; wrote: When I did a psgml update in early 2000, I noticed that many of the psgml files had Ben Wing's fingerprints on them. It might help to ask him. At that time, some of the DTDs were way out of date, so I did some work on updating them, and threw a few new ones in, based on an informal unscientific poll: <URL:http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=psg0uvpfpb.fsf%40diannao.ittc.uk... I now think that that was a mistake. I think we should get out of the business of supplying DTDs entirely. Many people have perfectly good sets of DTDs already and don't need us supplying old ones. We should probably provide pointers to places where popular DTDs can be acquired, and possibly package up only the HTML DTDs in a separate package. That would help us avoid complaints like this one: <URL:http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=m3lmy5te33.fsf%40maya.linux.ca> -- Jerry James http://www.ittc.ku.edu/~james/

Ville> On Thu, 2002-08-08 at 18:09, Jerry James wrote: So make a separate package and deprecate it. I have not yet done much with anything but X?HTML. However I occasionally run into some of the others we supply and it's useful to have them. Definitely. Somebody who has a good idea of what they're doing should explain (in Texinfo and maybe docstrings and error messages) how to configure PSGML to point at existing catalogs and DTD libraries. If we're going to get in the business of passing judgement on which DTDs we should supply, there aren't _any_ HTML DTDs we should supply ;-). Ville> Yes, I kind of like this, though I have a feeling the Ville> package system wouldn't be too happy with a DTD-only Ville> package. I don't see why. And if so, we should fix it. Ville> Would we need to have some dummy .el's, At the very least we'll have _pkg.el and auto-autoloads.el, but those are both automatically generated. Ville> or (sh|c)ould psgml-html.el (which is not part of the Ville> upstream psgml) be moved there as well? No. Millions for implementation, but not one .el to cater to bad design (assuming it is screwed that way). Make the conceptual separation as right as we can. Ville> Maybe HTML 4.01 and XHTML 1.0 (updated to the new W3C Ville> recommendation, 2nd ed.) would be enough, and g'bye to all Ville> others? I don't think this works. People will be using older DTDs (I know I have a few), and support for those shouldn't "just go away". I keep coming back to the "separately package what we've got, and deprecate it". Maybe once the separation is working, give it 6 months and remove from SUMO? (Ie, give 6 months warning.) This business of "we've decided, you adapt" is one of the things I've always disliked about GNU Emacs. In the end it's up to you and Peter, Ville. It's your workload. Footnotes: [1] My apologies for the brokenness of Supercite. I _will_ fix this, one of these days.... -- Institute of Policy and Planning Sciences http://turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp University of Tsukuba Tennodai 1-1-1 Tsukuba 305-8573 JAPAN My nostalgia for Icon makes me forget about any of the bad things. I don't have much nostalgia for Perl, so its faults I remember. Scott Gilbert c.l.py

Stephen> (1) I was wrong, Steve _did_ add the DTDs. He feels, as Ah, so I was on the right track at least. Stephen> I do, that we Stephen> really do need to supply HTML DTDs, and independently Stephen> suggested that we add infrastructure (either to PSGML or Stephen> separately) to give users better support in configuring Stephen> PSGML to point at other catalogs and libraries. Ville> Yes, I kind of like this, though I have a feeling the Ville> package system wouldn't be too happy with a DTD-only Ville> package. Stephen> I don't see why. And if so, we should fix it. Ville> Would we need to have some dummy .el's, Stephen> At the very least we'll have _pkg.el and Stephen> auto-autoloads.el, but those are both automatically Stephen> generated. Stephen> (2) Steve backs me up on this. Data-only packages should work. xemacs-packages\sounds-{au,wav} are good examples. Stephen> However, we might want to have some kind of customizable list of Stephen> available catalogs, and the XEmacs Deprecated DTD Catalog should Stephen> register itself to that (a trivial library). -- Adrian Aichner mailto:adrian＠xemacs.org http://www.xemacs.org/

On Fri, 09 Aug 2002 10:28:19 +0900, "Stephen J. Turnbull" said: And of course, there will be people who actually (gasp, shock) have their own DTDs created for some custom project (I know pretty soon I'm going to have to start investigating the DTD that goes along with the recent RFC draft for XML encoding of security intrusion alert data.... Having said that, it would indeed be nice if it was possible to just tell XEmacs that all the DTDs live "over there" at some point(s) in the file system. That way we can get out of the DTD business altogether, and let people find the ones they need - let's face it, if they need a HTML 4.01 or XHTML 1.0 DTD, they probably alredy have access to a copy (as whatever is *receiving* the data already needs the DTD). At least I'm *hoping* so - that's the case - the only two cases I can think of for demanding a HTML 4.01 DTD (for example) are "the consumer of the data already has the DTD" and "intellectual masturbation". Of course, I'm sitting in Dulles airport between flights as I write this, so maybe I'm pulling a Vixie(*) here... /Valdis (*) "Never release software while stuck in an airport" - Vixie's comment after a .0 release of BIND ramped up to .4 or so within a week. ;)

|--==> "VS" == Ville Skytt <Ville> writes: VS> Yes, I kind of like this, though I have a feeling the package VS> system wouldn't be too happy with a DTD-only package. I couldn't see this being a problem. VS> Would we need to have some dummy .el's, Nope. Take a look at sounds-au and sounds-wav. -- |---<Steve Youngs>---------------<GnuPG KeyID: 10D5C9C5>---| | XEmacs - It's not just an editor. | | It's a way of life. | |------------------------------------&lt;youngs(a)xemacs.org&gt;---|

Adrian Aichner writes: I talked to Steve T. about this last week, but to confirm, I updated them from the most authoritive HTML validation site I could find at the time. It was the one that distributed sgmls. I like the idea of splitting the DTDs off from the rest of the package and providing some mechanism to automatically grab copies from w3c, or whereever. This is one area where you definitely want to know where it came from.