9:18 p.m.
Jonathan Harris <jhar(a)tardis.ed.ac.uk> writes:
> I don't think that would be a good idea. All over XEmacs,
button1 is
> used to position the point, while button2 is used for selecting.
> Making list-mode an exception without changing anything else would
> only add to the confusion.
That's not quite true; button1 on a glyph widget selects it (eg in
customize buffers).
...which only proves my point that changing these things is a
long-term mistake because it confuses the hell out of everyone. It
does make sense for button1 to select glyphs (Customize merely copied
the way annotations.el has behaved for ages), because positioning the
point to a glyph doesn't.
I'd like to see button1 select all "button-like"
things. I suggest
that non-glyph widgets are certainly buttons. I also suggest that
filenames in Completion List Mode are more button-like than
text-like, especially when presented in the mouse-read-file frame if
not in general. Do you think that changing button1 to select
filenames in the mouse-read-file frame only and to select non-glyph
widgets would be a good thing or at least harmless?
I don't know. In my humble opinion, Emacs users should get used to
clicking with button2 everywhere, *or* we should do something about
it. Kludging up individual modes in order to support the optional use
of button1 for that purpose is clearly not the right thing.
My opinions on all that are not very strong. If you really really
think it would help people to select files with button1, I won't
veto the change.
9:04 a.m.
New subject: Unable to use File Open Panel
At 10:18 PM 3/19/99 +0100, Hrvoje Niksic wrote:
I don't know. In my humble opinion, Emacs users should get used
to
clicking with button2 everywhere, *or* we should do something about
it. Kludging up individual modes in order to support the optional use
of button1 for that purpose is clearly not the right thing.
This is venturing onto the delete-key-deletes-forward discussion. IMHO
button clicks and key presses should generally do what the majority of
people expect them to do not what has happened historically in X/Emacs. I
think button1 should traverse hyperlink type things. Everyone is so
familiar with that metaphor because of the web that it seems crazy to have
something different.
andy
3:26 p.m.
New subject: Unable to use File Open Panel
Andy Piper wrote:
> I don't know. In my humble opinion, Emacs users should get
used to
> clicking with button2 everywhere, *or* we should do something about
> it. Kludging up individual modes in order to support the optional use
> of button1 for that purpose is clearly not the right thing.
This is venturing onto the delete-key-deletes-forward discussion. IMHO
button clicks and key presses should generally do what the majority of
people expect them to do not what has happened historically in X/Emacs. I
think button1 should traverse hyperlink type things. Everyone is so
familiar with that metaphor because of the web that it seems crazy to have
something different.
That may be appropriate for a *viewer*, but virtually every program
which has a text cursor (caret) allows it to be positioned using
button 1.
--
Glynn Clements <glynn(a)sensei.co.uk>
7 p.m.
New subject: Unable to use File Open Panel
At 03:26 PM 3/22/99 +0000, Glynn Clements wrote:
Andy Piper wrote:
> > I don't know. In my humble opinion, Emacs users should get used to
> > clicking with button2 everywhere, *or* we should do something about
> > it. Kludging up individual modes in order to support the optional use
> > of button1 for that purpose is clearly not the right thing.
>
> This is venturing onto the delete-key-deletes-forward discussion. IMHO
> button clicks and key presses should generally do what the majority of
> people expect them to do not what has happened historically in X/Emacs. I
> think button1 should traverse hyperlink type things. Everyone is so
> familiar with that metaphor because of the web that it seems crazy to have
> something different.
That may be appropriate for a *viewer*, but virtually every program
which has a text cursor (caret) allows it to be positioned using
button 1.
Sure, selecting filenames for loading a file is a view-type activity,
similarly for info say.
andy
6:14 p.m.
New subject: Unable to use File Open Panel
Andy Piper writes:
At 03:26 PM 3/22/99 +0000, Glynn Clements wrote:
>That may be appropriate for a *viewer*, but virtually every program
>which has a text cursor (caret) allows it to be positioned using
>button 1.
Sure, selecting filenames for loading a file is a view-type activity,
similarly for info say.
I disagree. One of the nice things about Emacs, IMO, is consistency -
I can always select text for copying by holding down the left mouse
button and wiping the mouse across a region of text. Even if the text
is in the *Info* buffer. And this is a good thing. It's nice that I
can easily copy text out of the Info buffer if I want to, say, mail it
to someone. Or similarly for W3 - you can copy and paste out of web
pages using normal XEmacs mouse bindings; you can, unlike Netscape,
select a hyperlink to copy as text without jumping to it.
I find it very annoying when programs (MS-style) put up
text that cannot be selected, copied, and pasted into another window.
Making mouse-1 the "active" button in Info would be taking away this
capability, as well as being, IMO, more confusing in the long run - it
may confuse the naive user that mouse-2 is the button that jumps to
links, activates buttons, etc, but once the user gets the least but
used to XEmacs it makes sense - it is *consistent* with the XEmacs
mouse model. It's less to remember if everything follows the same
pattern. Otherwise I have to remember that in modes A, B, and C mouse-1
selects text, and in modes D, E, and F mouse-1 performs some action.
6:08 p.m.
New subject: Mouse-1 actions [was Re: Unable to use File Open Panel]
At 12:14 PM 3/25/99 -0600, Charles G Waldman wrote:
I disagree. One of the nice things about Emacs, IMO, is consistency
-
I can always select text for copying by holding down the left mouse
Making mouse-1 the "active" button in Info would be taking
away this
capability, as well as being, IMO, more confusing in the long run - it
may confuse the naive user that mouse-2 is the button that jumps to
Just some more datapoints. 95% of mice on ms-windows systems I have used in
the last 3-4 years do not have mouse 2. So my overriding concern is that it
is just too damn inconvenient to hit two mouse buttons simultanously for
common operations. Consistency does not concern me, I want XEmacs to be
useable and intuitive, certainly in ms-windows environments that means
mouse-1 for view type activities. We do it already for glyphs and other
things.
I can concede that you might not want to do this under UNIX - but our
delete key discussions have encompassed UNIX as well even though the
presence of delete is more normal under PC systems.
andy
9369
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5 comments
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participants (4)
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Andy Piper -
Charles G Waldman -
Glynn Clements -
Hrvoje Niksic