just as a point of reference, don't assume that the lack of crash reports from me indicates that they've gone away in frustration, I've simply turned off the gutter tabs in the XEmacs process I use for VM, and in my other XEmacs process I use a single frame I know this means I'm not being a good beta tester, but I get the feeling that my reports haven't been helping anyway -- John A. Turner, Senior Research Associate Blue Sky Studios, One South Rd, Harrison, NY 10528 http://www.blueskystudios.com/ (914) 825-8319