8:11 p.m.
How exactly do we handle the NEWS entries for packages? In the old,
pre-package times, I would have liked to announce changes in
`htmlize' between 21.4 and (the hypothetical) 21.5 like this:
* htmlize 1.16 contains many improvements over the version 0.69
shipped with XEmacs 21.4, including:
** A stable API that Lisp code can use to invoke features of htmlize.
(This is what prompted the major version increase. I plan not to
change the API incompatibly without also bumping the major version.)
** Better I18N support under Mule. htmlize can now convert non-ASCII
characters to HTML (Unicode) entities. Alternatively, it allows you
to specify the charset that the resulting HTML will declare using the
META tag.
** Better support for operation under TTY's and better
color-robustness in general -- if a color cannot be resolved to RGB,
it is copied to the resulting HTML intact. (0.69 would throw a
cryptic error.)
** Invisible regions of buffer are ignored during conversion.
** Overlapping faces are merged. This applies both to face lists in
the `face' text property and to multiple faces specified by all
extents overlapping a region. (0.69 completely ignored multiple
faces.)
<!-- [This wouldn't go in XEmacs]
** Some of the GNU Emacs 21 face attributes are now supported.
E.g. strike-through and overline are recognized.
** Emacs 20+ property lists instead of faces are supported as well.
E.g. (put-text-property START END '(:foreground "red")) will be
recognized by `htmlize' when generating the HTML.
-->
* The buffer is untabified before conversion to HTML.
How does this kind of announcement fit into the world of packages?
12:43 a.m.
>>>> "Hrvoje" == Hrvoje Niksic
<hniksic(a)xemacs.org> writes:
Hrvoje> How does this kind of announcement fit into the world of
Hrvoje> packages?
It doesn't. Packages are on a completely separate release cycle.
Ask Norbert, but I suspect he would welcome guidance on how to
announce changes in packages when he releases them.
In core, make sure the descriptions in README.packages and
man/xemacs/packages.texi are up to date.
--
Institute of Policy and Planning Sciences http://turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp
University of Tsukuba Tennodai 1-1-1 Tsukuba 305-8573 JAPAN
Ask not how you can "do" free software business;
ask what your business can "do for" free software.
8:18 a.m.
"Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen(a)xemacs.org> writes:
It doesn't. Packages are on a completely separate release
cycle.
Ask Norbert, but I suspect he would welcome guidance on how to
announce changes in packages when he releases them.
I've been thinking along the line of putting NEWS files into those
packages that are a collections of single file goodies. But with a
non-vanishing probability (close to one?) people might not see and/or
read their contents.
We could also pull out htmlize into its own package, along with a
NEWS file (same constraints of course). That might be overkill,
though and not the right time to do so.
This sort of information should go into the general-doc package
(provided it already existed), but I'm not sure how to distinguish the
packages. Well, package.NEWS would do. IMO, it would also be
necessary to create a HTML output which can be put on the web page.
norbert.
8:56 a.m.
>>>> "viteno" == Norbert Koch
<viteno(a)xemacs.org> writes:
viteno> This sort of information should go into the general-doc
viteno> package (provided it already existed), but I'm not sure
viteno> how to distinguish the packages. Well, package.NEWS would
viteno> do. IMO, it would also be necessary to create a HTML
viteno> output which can be put on the web page.
makeinfo --no-headers produces plain text, and makeinfo --html
produces (surprise!) HTML. So keeping it in Texinfo should mean it's
possible to produce package.NEWS and packages.html from a single
source (even if the initial output is crummy, isn't it better to
improve makeinfo?)
general-docs seems like an idea whose time has come ... unfortunately
the time hasn't come to me quite yet. But I'll bump the priority, and
I hope Ville is still thinking about it occasionally.
--
Institute of Policy and Planning Sciences http://turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp
University of Tsukuba Tennodai 1-1-1 Tsukuba 305-8573 JAPAN
Ask not how you can "do" free software business;
ask what your business can "do for" free software.
9:37 a.m.
"Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen(a)xemacs.org> writes:
makeinfo --no-headers produces plain text, and makeinfo --html
produces (surprise!) HTML. So keeping it in Texinfo should mean it's
possible to produce package.NEWS and packages.html from a single
source (even if the initial output is crummy, isn't it better to
improve makeinfo?)
Yes, I thought about Texinfo as well. The possibly [a] necessary
changes to create .content from .html look small enough.
general-docs seems like an idea whose time has come ...
unfortunately
the time hasn't come to me quite yet. But I'll bump the priority, and
I hope Ville is still thinking about it occasionally.
If there was a discussion about the issues it's been before I acted as
XPRM. If there's something I can do, let me know.
norbert.
Footnotes:
[a] ie if we can't put in the HTML directly
2:05 p.m.
"Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen(a)xemacs.org> writes:
>>>>> "Hrvoje" == Hrvoje Niksic
<hniksic(a)xemacs.org> writes:
Hrvoje> How does this kind of announcement fit into the world of
Hrvoje> packages?
It doesn't. Packages are on a completely separate release cycle.
One problem is that we compete with FSF that does include such (IMO
enticing) NEWS entries. It would be nice to have a separate outlet
for package NEWS, one which is actually read by end users.
Idea: have `C-h n' somehow include package news.
2:59 p.m.
Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic(a)xemacs.org> wrote:
One problem is that we compete with FSF that does include such (IMO
enticing) NEWS entries. It would be nice to have a separate outlet
for package NEWS, one which is actually read by end users.
While NEWS entries would be good, perhaps a second choice would be
freshmeat announcements?
--
Darryl ("No, not volunteering") Okahata
darrylo(a)soco.agilent.com
DISCLAIMER: this message is the author's personal opinion and does not
constitute the support, opinion, or policy of Agilent Technologies, or
of the little green men that have been following him all day.
2:46 a.m.
>>>> "Darryl" == Darryl Okahata
<darrylo(a)soco.agilent.com> writes:
Darryl> Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic(a)xemacs.org> wrote:
> One problem is that we compete with FSF that does include such
> (IMO enticing) NEWS entries.
What do you find enticing about them? That's a real question. I find
them distressing, since the subtext is "we hope you like it, because
you're going to have to wait another three years for the next
version." (That's an extreme, not an exaggeration. An important
extreme at that: the last update of Gnus took over 3 years, and GNU's
current MH-E is well over 2 years old, with no update in sight, and
tons of effort focused on _RMAIL_! Will rms get real quoting? Will
Handa and gniibe get RFC 2046 charset parameters? Film at 11!)
I think it's a feature that core NEWS says nothing about packages:
Packages: No Package NEWS. With XEmacs, Lisp packages are always
up-to-date. To find out what's available, configure your mirrors,
and then do "M-x list-packages".
:-) Humor, yes, but we need to find a way to tell users about package
updates that also emphasizes that they happen in real time. NEWS is
not very good from that perspective, IMO.
> It would be nice to have a separate outlet for package NEWS,
> one which is actually read by end users.
No NEWS is actually read by end users until after they install AFAICT.
Darryl> While NEWS entries would be good, perhaps a second
Darryl> choice would be freshmeat announcements?
Well, AFAIK Norbert's announcements (of public releases, not the
pre-releases) go out on xemacs-announce, which has about 800
subscribers. (Not to make work for Norbert, but) We could post those
announcements on the web site. Since they're so frequent (at least
bi-monthly) we'd have to work out some scheme where several would be
available directly from the front page, I guess. Or maybe for the
most recent quarter and fraction, have links
Since September 1, 2003, calc, games, cc-mode, <!-- about three lines :) -->
were <a href="Releases/index.html#package_news_2003q4">updated or
added</a>.
Since July 1, 2003, edict, mh-e, cc-mode, <!-- about five lines :) -->
were <a href="Releases/index.html#package_news_2003q3">updated or
added</a>.
On the other hand, if you're talking about major new features, etc,
shouldn't that be done by, or at least coordinated with, the upstream
maintainers?
As for freshmeat, I perfectly understand why Darryl is not
volunteering. I wouldn't either---I did some freshmeat work early in
the 21.4 series, and I have to say it was a massive PITA because you
had to do it via web, the freshmeat system was flatlined[1], and on
top of that somebody not directly associated with the core set up a
freshmeat account for XEmacs and then disappeared. (I think Adrian
resolved that last issue, but I haven't noticed any great enthusiasm
for freshmeat stuff.)
Does anybody have a script that auto-updates freshmeat entries?
Footnotes:
[1] No detectable electrical activity in the EEG.
--
Institute of Policy and Planning Sciences http://turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp
University of Tsukuba Tennodai 1-1-1 Tsukuba 305-8573 JAPAN
Ask not how you can "do" free software business;
ask what your business can "do for" free software.
11:07 a.m.
"Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen(a)xemacs.org> writes:
Well, AFAIK Norbert's announcements (of public releases, not the
pre-releases) go out on xemacs-announce, which has about 800
subscribers. (Not to make work for Norbert, but) We could post those
announcements on the web site. Since they're so frequent (at least
bi-monthly) we'd have to work out some scheme where several would be
available directly from the front page, I guess. Or maybe for the
most recent quarter and fraction, have links
I don't mind putting something similar to the public announcements on
the web site. IMO, it's a very good thing to do.
Since September 1, 2003, calc, games, cc-mode, <!-- about three
lines :) -->
were <a href="Releases/index.html#package_news_2003q4">updated or
added</a>.
Since July 1, 2003, edict, mh-e, cc-mode, <!-- about five lines :) -->
were <a href="Releases/index.html#package_news_2003q3">updated or
added</a>.
Okay, sounds doable, I only have to remember creating the diffs :-) I
talk to Adrian and see what we can come up with.
On the other hand, if you're talking about major new features,
etc,
shouldn't that be done by, or at least coordinated with, the upstream
maintainers?
But still we have to come up with a way to announce the new goodies
somewhere.
norbert.
9:55 p.m.
While working on the website, would it be possible to put packages more
prominently there? For an example what I'm thinking about, see the
attached patch.
11:24 a.m.
"Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen(a)xemacs.org> writes:
>>>>> "Darryl" == Darryl Okahata
<darrylo(a)soco.agilent.com> writes:
Darryl> Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic(a)xemacs.org> wrote:
>> One problem is that we compete with FSF that does include such
>> (IMO enticing) NEWS entries.
What do you find enticing about them? That's a real question. I find
them distressing
They're not for you then, I guess. I like to see what's new in a
piece of software. If nothing has changed for the better, I don't
care about downloading it.
since the subtext is "we hope you like it, because you're
going to
have to wait another three years for the next version."
I've never read that subtext in NEWS files.
I think it's a feature that core NEWS says nothing about
packages:
Packages: No Package NEWS. With XEmacs, Lisp packages are always
up-to-date. To find out what's available, configure your mirrors,
and then do "M-x list-packages".
That tells you what's available, but not what's new. Also, I wouldn't
want to unleash PUI on anyone.
:-) Humor, yes, but we need to find a way to tell users about
package updates that also emphasizes that they happen in real time.
NEWS is not very good from that perspective, IMO.
You're probably right.
8:55 p.m.
>>>> "Stephen" == Stephen J Turnbull
<stephen(a)xemacs.org> writes:
Stephen> As for freshmeat, I perfectly understand why Darryl is
Stephen> not volunteering. I wouldn't either---I did some
Stephen> freshmeat work early in the 21.4 series, and I have to
Stephen> say it was a massive PITA because you had to do it via
Stephen> web, the freshmeat system was flatlined[1], and on top of
Stephen> that somebody not directly associated with the core set
Stephen> up a freshmeat account for XEmacs and then disappeared.
Stephen> (I think Adrian resolved that last issue, but I haven't
Stephen> noticed any great enthusiasm for freshmeat stuff.)
Yes, I have the freshmeat password and some others do too, but nobody
can prove to care :-)
Stephen> Does anybody have a script that auto-updates freshmeat entries?
Not me.
--
Adrian Aichner
mailto:adrian＠xemacs.org
http://www.xemacs.org/
2:32 p.m.
>>>> "HN" == Hrvoje Niksic
<hniksic(a)xemacs.org> writes:
HN> How exactly do we handle the NEWS entries for packages? In the old,
HN> pre-package times, I would have liked to announce changes in
HN> `htmlize' between 21.4 and (the hypothetical) 21.5 like this:
I have to say that I would also love to see some form of announcements or
documentation. I have done alot of work both with introducing new libraries
into existing packages and with creating pretty good documentation that
actually publicizes what's available. Yet I'm afraid that noone, other than
us techies, will ever know that this has been done. To paraphrase the
question about trees falling in a forst, if a change has been made and noone
knows about it does it count as a change?
--
Jake Colman -- XEmacs Tinkerer
7478
days inactive
7488
days old
12 comments
7 participants
participants (7)
-
Adrian Aichner -
Darryl Okahata -
Hrvoje Niksic -
Jake Colman -
Norbert Koch -
Stephen J. Turnbull -
Ville Skyttä