9:06 p.m.
Hello all.
I've been out of the XEmacs development loop for a while, but I'm back
now... my intentions w.r.t. XEmacs are to get back to working on
alignment issues with proportional fonts, and to develop my little
experiments (http://home.fnal.gov/~cgw/xemacs/experiment/) into a real
patch. (The website is still up at FNAL but I am not currently
working there).
Dipping my toes back into the water of XEmacs development, I
downloaded xemacs-21.4.3 and built it on a Solaris 5.7 box.
A few comments:
The progress gauge seems pretty broken. It only updates when I move
the mouse. And when it does update, it jiggles horizontally, and the
background flashes alternately grey and blue. (It looks pretty bad. I
wish I knew how to take a screenshot in .MPG format).
I find it somewhat disappointing that there is no configure-time
option to disable gutters and progress-bars. Is there a customizable
lisp variable to make these (no-value-added) progress gauges go away
and trouble me no more? According to what I can find from
hyper-apropos, I can make the progress gauge "large" or "small", but
can I customize it into oblivion? In its current shape, the progress
gauge is not yet ready for prime time. It should be disabled by
default and enable-able as an option, like other "experimental"
features such as drag-n-drop.
The keyboard accelerators on the menus are similarly quite ugly and
I'd like to see a way to disable these as well. They would be OK as
an optional feature. Particularly things like the font-size menu,
which looks goofy with two columns of numbers:
_1_ 5
_2_ 6
_3_ 7
_4_ 8
_5_ 9
...
Why aren't the font sizes themselves used as their own accelerators?
If you enable function-menu, the first letter of each function in the
function menu is underlined, even if these letters are not unique.
For instance, in emacs.c:
_m_ain
_m_ain_1
_m_ake_arg_list
_m_ake_arg_list_1
_m_ake_argc_argv
...
And, maybe I'm just being thick, but I don't understand what key combo
is supposed to bring up the accelerated menus. On my box, neither
alt-T nor meta-T nor ctrl-T brings up the _T_ools menu. What is the
intented usage of the menu accelerators?
Other than these aesthetic comments, 21.4.3 seems pretty stable - I've
been running it for about a day without incident.
One of the reasons I switched from FSFmacs to XEmacs back in 1995 or
so was that XEmacs was so much more aesthetically pleasing. Let's
make 21.4 the most beautiful XEmacs yet!
11 p.m.
>>>> "charles" == charles g waldman
<cgw(a)alum.mit.edu> writes:
charles> A few comments:
charles> The progress gauge seems pretty broken. It only updates when I move
charles> the mouse. And when it does update, it jiggles horizontally, and the
charles> background flashes alternately grey and blue. (It looks pretty bad. I
charles> wish I knew how to take a screenshot in .MPG format).
I have had exactly the same experience. However, it seems to work
better with Lesstif. It works better with 21.5.1. There are some
variables you can set to make this work better, but I can't recall.
charles> I find it somewhat disappointing that there is no configure-time
charles> option to disable gutters and progress-bars. Is there a customizable
charles> lisp variable to make these (no-value-added) progress gauges go away
charles> and trouble me no more? According to what I can find from
See gutter-buffers-tab-visible-p (I think).
Can't remember what the magic to turn off progess gauges.
Ray
11:30 p.m.
At 06:00 PM 7/10/01 -0400, Raymond Toy wrote:
I have had exactly the same experience. However, it seems to work
better with Lesstif. It works better with 21.5.1. There are some
variables you can set to make this work better, but I can't recall.
Right, and also seems fairly specific to Solaris Motif - I don't see any of
these problems under Linux and no-one apart from Ray has reported any
similar problems.
andy
11:54 p.m.
Andy Piper writes:
Right, and also seems fairly specific to Solaris Motif - I don't
see any of
these problems under Linux and no-one apart from Ray has reported any
similar problems.
Are you interested in getting this working properly on Solaris? (Is
Solaris a platform that we care about supporting?) Do you suggest
that Solaris users install Lesstif and link XEmacs against that? Can
I do anything to help you debug this?
PS. There is a customizable user variable to control whether or not
the toolbar is displayed. My main objection to the progress gauge is
simply that it's not obvious how to customize it away. XEmacs is all
about customizability, right?
11:55 p.m.
At 05:54 PM 7/10/01 -0500, charles g waldman wrote:
Are you interested in getting this working properly on Solaris? (Is
Solaris a platform that we care about supporting?) Do you suggest
Absolutely. There is some wierd stuff going on in the event loop that Ray
and I tried to debug but couldn't make inroads into. The "nothing happens
until I move the mouse" is a symtom of the same basic problem. If you can
dig into why it might be happening that would be great.
PS. There is a customizable user variable to control whether or not
the toolbar is displayed. My main objection to the progress gauge is
simply that it's not obvious how to customize it away. XEmacs is all
about customizability, right?
Right. And I've only just noticed that the on-off switch only applies to
the buffers tabs. We should add a knob to the toolbar. The variable that
does this is progress-feedback-use-echo-area.
andy
12:15 a.m.
charles g waldman <cgw(a)alum.mit.edu> writes:
I find it somewhat disappointing that there is no configure-time
option to disable gutters and progress-bars. Is there a customizable
lisp variable to make these (no-value-added) progress gauges go away
and trouble me no more? According to what I can find from
hyper-apropos, I can make the progress gauge "large" or "small", but
can I customize it into oblivion? In its current shape, the progress
gauge is not yet ready for prime time. It should be disabled by
default and enable-able as an option, like other "experimental"
features such as drag-n-drop.
Does '--with-widgets=no' do what you want?
BTW, welcome back.
- vin
1:40 p.m.
>>>> "Andy" == Andy Piper <andyp(a)bea.com>
writes:
Andy> At 05:54 PM 7/10/01 -0500, charles g waldman wrote:
> Are you interested in getting this working properly on Solaris?
(Is
> Solaris a platform that we care about supporting?) Do you suggest
Andy> Absolutely. There is some wierd stuff going on in the event loop that
Andy> Ray and I tried to debug but couldn't make inroads into. The
"nothing
Andy> happens until I move the mouse" is a symtom of the same basic
Andy> problem. If you can dig into why it might be happening that would be
Andy> great.
The lack of progress is primarily my fault. I don't know anything
about X so I'm limited on what I can do, and Andy does have the
problem so it's hard for him.
I'd like to see this fixed up too. But it is definitely better with
21.5.1 and Solaris Motif than 21.4. Haven't tried 21.5.1 with
Lesstif. But I remember 21.4 with Lesstif worked better but everytime
I exited, I got some kind of X warning about something not being on
some list or something like that.
Ray
9:23 p.m.
Andy Piper writes:
Absolutely. There is some wierd stuff going on in the event loop that
Ray
and I tried to debug but couldn't make inroads into. The "nothing happens
until I move the mouse" is a symtom of the same basic problem. If you can
dig into why it might be happening that would be great.
Interestingly, I just applied a whole bunch of patches to my Solaris
system, including a patch for "Sun Motif" (patch ID's 107082-33 and
111259-01), and the progress gauge is a little better. In particular
the "nothing happens until mouse moves" problem seems to be gone.
However the "gauge jumps up and down and background changes colors"
problem is still there.
Even if this is a bug in Sun's Motif, I think we need a workaround.
Do we want to tell users that they need to apply Solaris patches in
order to run XEmacs?
10:33 p.m.
At 03:23 PM 7/18/01 -0500, Charles G Waldman wrote:
Interestingly, I just applied a whole bunch of patches to my Solaris
system, including a patch for "Sun Motif" (patch ID's 107082-33 and
111259-01), and the progress gauge is a little better. In particular
the "nothing happens until mouse moves" problem seems to be gone.
However the "gauge jumps up and down and background changes colors"
problem is still there.
Again, I have never seen this.
Even if this is a bug in Sun's Motif, I think we need a
workaround.
Do we want to tell users that they need to apply Solaris patches in
order to run XEmacs?
I think right now we would be better off recommending LessTif under Solaris :)
andy
5:55 a.m.
Andy Piper writes:
At 03:23 PM 7/18/01 -0500, Charles G Waldman wrote:
>However the "gauge jumps up and down and background changes
colors"
>problem is still there.
Again, I have never seen this.
Now you have! (At least if MIME works as advertised)
>Even if this is a bug in Sun's Motif, I think we need a
workaround.
>Do we want to tell users that they need to apply Solaris patches in
>order to run XEmacs?
I think right now we would be better off recommending LessTif under Solaris :)
Note that the above movie is not from a Solaris system, but from my
Linux machine at home! It's not running Lesstif but rather
"OpenMotif" from opengroup.org. So it's not a Solaris-only bug...
2:05 p.m.
>>>> "Andy" == Andy Piper <andyp(a)bea.com>
writes:
Andy> At 03:23 PM 7/18/01 -0500, Charles G Waldman wrote:
> Interestingly, I just applied a whole bunch of patches to my
Solaris
> system, including a patch for "Sun Motif" (patch ID's 107082-33 and
> 111259-01), and the progress gauge is a little better. In particular
> the "nothing happens until mouse moves" problem seems to be gone.
> However the "gauge jumps up and down and background changes colors"
> problem is still there.
Andy> Again, I have never seen this.
> Even if this is a bug in Sun's Motif, I think we need a
workaround.
> Do we want to tell users that they need to apply Solaris patches in
> order to run XEmacs?
Andy> I think right now we would be better off recommending LessTif under Solaris
:)
While it makes this bug better, I do remember that using LessTif
always causes XEmacs to print out some message about widget not being
on "my" list everytime I quit and at various random times while
running. I don't know what causes this, but it doesn't give me a warm
fuzzy feeling that things are working right. :-(
Ray
5:11 p.m.
Raymond Toy writes:
>>>>> "Andy" == Andy Piper
<andyp(a)bea.com> writes:
Andy> At 03:23 PM 7/18/01 -0500, Charles G Waldman wrote:
>> Interestingly, I just applied a whole bunch of patches to my Solaris
>> system, including a patch for "Sun Motif" (patch ID's
107082-33 and
>> 111259-01), and the progress gauge is a little better. In particular
>> the "nothing happens until mouse moves" problem seems to be gone.
>> However the "gauge jumps up and down and background changes
colors"
>> problem is still there.
Andy> Again, I have never seen this.
>> Even if this is a bug in Sun's Motif, I think we need a workaround.
>> Do we want to tell users that they need to apply Solaris patches in
>> order to run XEmacs?
Andy> I think right now we would be better off recommending LessTif under Solaris
:)
While it makes this bug better, I do remember that using LessTif
always causes XEmacs to print out some message about widget not being
on "my" list everytime I quit and at various random times while
running. I don't know what causes this, but it doesn't give me a warm
fuzzy feeling that things are working right. :-(
Aha, so that's where this message comces from.
Warning: XtRemoveGrab asked to remove a widget not on the list
5:40 p.m.
At 11:55 PM 7/18/01 -0500, Charles G Waldman wrote:
> >Even if this is a bug in Sun's Motif, I think we need a
workaround.
> >Do we want to tell users that they need to apply Solaris patches in
> >order to run XEmacs?
>
> I think right now we would be better off recommending LessTif under
Solaris :)
Note that the above movie is not from a Solaris system, but from my
Linux machine at home! It's not running Lesstif but rather
"OpenMotif" from opengroup.org. So it's not a Solaris-only bug...
Ok. I have finally received my laptop and installed RH 7.1 so hopefully I
will be able to reproduce this and take a look. From the mpeg it looks like
a sizing problem.
andy
5:44 p.m.
Andy Piper writes:
Ok. I have finally received my laptop and installed RH 7.1 so
hopefully I
will be able to reproduce this and take a look. From the mpeg it looks like
a sizing problem.
Indeed.
I've found that if I do something like
(progress-feedback-with-label "FOO" "BAR" 10)
then repeatedly hit C-l, the progress gauge toggles back and forth
between its "good" and "bad" states. There is also a problem with
the
label not getting redisplayed.
3:55 a.m.
>>>> "Kyle" == Kyle Jones
<kyle_jones(a)wonderworks.com> writes:
Kyle> Raymond Toy writes:
> While it makes this bug better, I do remember that using
> LessTif always causes XEmacs to print out some message about
> widget not being on "my" list everytime I quit and at various
> random times while running. I don't know what causes this, but
> it doesn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling that things are working
> right. :-(
Kyle> Aha, so that's where this message comces from.
Kyle> Warning: XtRemoveGrab asked to remove a widget not on the
Kyle> list
This is not Motif/Lesstif specific. I've seen it with Athena 3D, as
well.
--
University of Tsukuba Tennodai 1-1-1 Tsukuba 305-8573 JAPAN
Institute of Policy and Planning Sciences Tel/fax: +81 (298) 53-5091
_________________ _________________ _________________ _________________
What are those straight lines for? "XEmacs rules."
9:55 p.m.
Vin Shelton writes:
charles g waldman <cgw(a)alum.mit.edu> writes:
> I find it somewhat disappointing that there is no configure-time
> option to disable gutters and progress-bars.
Does '--with-widgets=no' do what you want?
Not unless I define `what I want' to be a build failure ;-)
lwlib-Xm.c: In function `xm_update_one_widget':
lwlib-Xm.c:891: `xmScaleWidgetClass' undeclared (first use in this
function)
lwlib-Xm.c:891: (Each undeclared identifier is reported only once
lwlib-Xm.c:891: for each function it appears in.)
10:41 p.m.
At 03:55 PM 7/30/2001 -0500, Charles G Waldman wrote:
Not unless I define `what I want' to be a build failure ;-)
lwlib-Xm.c: In function `xm_update_one_widget':
lwlib-Xm.c:891: `xmScaleWidgetClass' undeclared (first use in this
function)
lwlib-Xm.c:891: (Each undeclared identifier is reported only once
lwlib-Xm.c:891: for each function it appears in.)
This is a bug in my fix.
andy
11:08 p.m.
Well, let me re-phrase my query:
Does the description of '--with-widgets=no' sound like what you
wanted? On my system, it successfully disables the progress gauges
and the gutter. Did you 'make distclean' first? It sounds as if the
widgets are still being built even though you attempted to configure
them out.
It also sounds as if you are building with motif - I use Lucid
menubars and scrollbars myself, so that's a difference between our
setups.
- vin
Charles G Waldman <cgw(a)alum.mit.edu> writes:
Vin Shelton writes:
> charles g waldman <cgw(a)alum.mit.edu> writes:
>
> > I find it somewhat disappointing that there is no configure-time
> > option to disable gutters and progress-bars.
>
> Does '--with-widgets=no' do what you want?
Not unless I define `what I want' to be a build failure ;-)
lwlib-Xm.c: In function `xm_update_one_widget':
lwlib-Xm.c:891: `xmScaleWidgetClass' undeclared (first use in this
function)
lwlib-Xm.c:891: (Each undeclared identifier is reported only once
lwlib-Xm.c:891: for each function it appears in.)
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18 comments
6 participants
participants (6)
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Andy Piper -
Charles Waldman -
Kyle Jones -
Raymond Toy -
Stephen J. Turnbull -
Vin Shelton