[ Apologies if this email is fubar. I'm struggling to make ] [ MS Outlook act like a decent email client. So far my ] [ success has been limited. :-( ] Jan Vroonhof <vroonhof(a)math.ethz.ch&gt; wrote: Yes! I'd rate myself somewhere in the neighbourhood of a "power user"[0] and it took me ages to find /anything/ on xemacs.org. In the lull after 19.14 (IIRC) I was starting to think XEmacs was dead since nothing seemed to be happening on the web site. Not until I found XEmacs-beta did I figure out that there was actually something going on. The same problem here as above; Y'all are thinking on the wrong level! To follow the evolution of XEmacs, I need an updated web site which lists current version -- including minor revisions and user level change log -- and current "Beta"[1] version with similar information. There should also be information regarding what is being worked on and what is planned for future releases. The packaging needs to be extremely simple -- rpms, IRIX inst'able or Windoze InstallShield/Point&Drool, or a single tar that gets you everything you need to get started; _including_ efs and whatever else I need to get the package system running. Figuring out what is optional and what is required and which archive gets untared where is sub-optimal to the point of being obtuse. If you want to fiddle with this, chances are you are actively developing for XEmacs and should be getting this stuff from cvs. Otherwise you just want to use the (arguably) best editor/ide/whatever without having to figure out implementation details to do it. I love XEmacs, but I'll never write a line of LISP if I can avoid it. XEmacs is a monolitic application -- and packages amount to "plugins" -- from my POV. I'd like to be able to treat XEmacs as a "Black Box", but I keep getting reminded that there is a whole lot of plumbing underneat and this is especially true during installation. My suggestions for remeding these problems: * Get some poor schmuck to take over what work the current "webmaster" on www.xemacs.org doesn't have time for[2]. You don't have to tie up developer's time for this; any XEmacs user should be able to manage the brunt of the work. * Figure out why it takes so long to make binaries and "installers" (InstallShield, rpms, etc.) and fix it. Recruit new builders; fix the problems that makes them spend so much time getting stuff out the door. * Start with a "clean" machine (e.g. a fresh Red Hat 6.0 install), open a web browser to www.xemacs.org and proceede to install the most recent XEmacs. Write down the steps (i.e. click link; read page; click link; download tar file one; download tar file two; etc.) until you can start working with XEmacs (e.g. check out your current Perl project from the cvs repository and start writing). Now, figure out what can be done to cut down on the number of steps. Can you get it below five? :-) HTH, TTFN. -link [0] - As in "He does some admining and simple Perl programs, but for gods sakes do not let him near anything complicated!" :-) [1] - For an arbitrarily wide definition of "beta". [2] - No, I'm _not_ volunteering! :-|