4:29 a.m.
"sumo" is a cute name for the collection of all packages, but I'm afraid it
will be overly confusing for people not familiar with it. I've created
symlinks in FTP/packages with names `xemacs-all-packages.gz/bz2' and
`xemacs-mule-all-packages.gz/bz2' and I wonder whether we shouldn't change
the docs to refer to them.
4:39 a.m.
* Ben Wing <ben(a)666.com> writes:
"sumo" is a cute name for the collection of all packages,
but I'm afraid it
will be overly confusing for people not familiar with it. I've created
symlinks in FTP/packages with names `xemacs-all-packages.gz/bz2' and
`xemacs-mule-all-packages.gz/bz2' and I wonder whether we shouldn't change
the docs to refer to them.
Definitely! I've always thought "sumo" was a stupid name.
--
|---<Steve Youngs>---------------<GnuPG KeyID: A94B3003>---|
| XEmacs - The only _______ you'll ever need. |
| Fill in the blank, yes, it's THAT good! |
|----------------------------------<steve(a)youngs.au.com>---|
9:17 a.m.
Steve Youngs <steve(a)youngs.au.com> writes:
> "sumo" is a cute name for the collection of all
packages, but I'm afraid it
> will be overly confusing for people not familiar with it. I've created
> symlinks in FTP/packages with names `xemacs-all-packages.gz/bz2' and
> `xemacs-mule-all-packages.gz/bz2' and I wonder whether we shouldn't
change
> the docs to refer to them.
Definitely! I've always thought "sumo" was a stupid name.
+1
norbert.
3:36 p.m.
"Ben Wing" <ben(a)666.com> writes:
"sumo" is a cute name for the collection of all packages,
but I'm afraid it
will be overly confusing for people not familiar with it. I've created
symlinks in FTP/packages with names `xemacs-all-packages.gz/bz2' and
`xemacs-mule-all-packages.gz/bz2' and I wonder whether we shouldn't change
the docs to refer to them.
Not so fast, Ben!
Documentation changes, for one, should at least be considered and
coordinated.
Who is going to make them?
I have nothing against the direction of the change, but let's put the
whole scope of this on the table before starting with a single random
change!
Adrian
--
Adrian Aichner
mailto:adrian＠xemacs.org
http://www.xemacs.org/
2:21 a.m.
>>>> "Ben" == Ben Wing <ben(a)666.com>
writes:
Ben> "sumo" is a cute name for the collection of all packages, but
Ben> I'm afraid it will be overly confusing for people not
Ben> familiar with it.
So are VTR remote controls. People need to read the docs anyway, I
don't see the name confusing anybody who isn't an accident waiting to
happen (through no fault of their own, admittedly).
Ben> I've created symlinks in FTP/packages with names
Ben> `xemacs-all-packages.gz/bz2' and
Ben> `xemacs-mule-all-packages.gz/bz2' and I wonder whether we
Ben> shouldn't change the docs to refer to them.
You're aware that Michael removed the code that looks for
"xemacs-packages as a sibling of the source root while you were away?
This is going to be an attractive nuisance, as people grab the
packages, unpack them in a random place (eg, next to the source they
just unpacked) and wonder why XEmacs doesn't find them.
I really wish you'd bring these things up for discussion before doing
them.
--
Institute of Policy and Planning Sciences http://turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp
University of Tsukuba Tennodai 1-1-1 Tsukuba 305-8573 JAPAN
Ask not how you can "do" free software business;
ask what your business can "do for" free software.
3:48 a.m.
Ben> "sumo" is a cute name for the collection of all
packages, but
Ben> I'm afraid it will be overly confusing for people not
Ben> familiar with it.
So are VTR remote controls. People need to read the docs
anyway, I don't see the name confusing anybody who isn't an
accident waiting to happen (through no fault of their own,
admittedly).
Come on. You're basically arguing "let's be deliberately obscure because
anyone who cares will figure it out anyway".
Ben> I've created symlinks in FTP/packages with names
Ben> `xemacs-all-packages.gz/bz2' and
Ben> `xemacs-mule-all-packages.gz/bz2' and I wonder whether we
Ben> shouldn't change the docs to refer to them.
You're aware that Michael removed the code that looks for
"xemacs-packages as a sibling of the source root while you
were away? This is going to be an attractive nuisance, as
people grab the packages, unpack them in a random place (eg,
next to the source they just unpacked) and wonder why XEmacs
doesn't find them.
I don't understand at all.
I really wish you'd bring these things up for discussion
before doing them.
It's just 4 symlinks. Takes 5 seconds to get rid of them if we don't want
them.
8:38 a.m.
>>>> "Ben" == Ben Wing <ben(a)666.com>
writes:
Ben> Come on. You're basically arguing "let's be deliberately
Ben> obscure because anyone who cares will figure it out anyway".
I can live with that interpretation. I'm also planning to make it
mostly irrelevant, by providing packages-in-source distributions that
install the packages in the right place.
Ben> I don't understand at all.
People already download the sumos and unpack them in a "convenient"
place, then post to c.e.x or xemacs-beta wondering why XEmacs doesn't
load their packages. If you label them more clearly, this will
happen, if anything, more often.
> I really wish you'd bring these things up for discussion
before
> doing them.
Ben> It's just 4 symlinks. Takes 5 seconds to get rid of them if
Ben> we don't want them.
That's true only if there's 100% consensus that they were a dumb idea
in the first place, and if you don't plan to deal with the questions
on c.e.x if and when they arise. I do plan to deal with those
questions _personally_, so I'd like some input into anything that
changes the distribution that ordinary users see.
--
Institute of Policy and Planning Sciences http://turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp
University of Tsukuba Tennodai 1-1-1 Tsukuba 305-8573 JAPAN
Ask not how you can "do" free software business;
ask what your business can "do for" free software.
4:38 a.m.
On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 17:38:51 +0900, "Stephen J. Turnbull" said:
Ben> I don't understand at all.
I'm confoozled here too.. There *are* legitimate issues with making this
change (one noted below), but the logic behind Stephen's objection is escaping me..
People already download the sumos and unpack them in a
"convenient"
place, then post to c.e.x or xemacs-beta wondering why XEmacs doesn't
load their packages. If you label them more clearly, this will
happen, if anything, more often.
Are you saying that if we call it xemacs-too-cutesy.tar.gz, they can't download
it and use it to shoot themselves in the foot? Geez, if *that* is the concern,
maybe we need to embed a backspace character or some control-alt-cokebottle
UTF-8 in the filename so they can't use it to untar it into an odd place... ;)
I'm sorry, but "If people can figure out what it's called, they can shoot
themselves in the foot with it" is a *poor* reason to not try to move to a more
obvious name. No matter *what* we call the symlinks, once they manage to find
it and get it to their system, it's going to untar into xemacs-packages/ in the
current directory. And *neither* the current nor proposed names give a
substantially enhanced hint regarding where to 'cd' to before 'tar xzf'.
A more legitimate issue is that RedHat and Fedora Core have these RPMs:
% ls -l xemac*
2000 -rw-r--r-- 1 valdis valdis 2038392 Nov 18 04:20 xemacs-21.4.15-10.i386.rpm
3432 -rw-r--r-- 1 valdis valdis 3503387 Nov 18 04:20 xemacs-common-21.4.15-10.i386.rpm
1164 -rw-r--r-- 1 valdis valdis 1181233 Nov 18 04:20 xemacs-el-21.4.15-10.i386.rpm
1528 -rw-r--r-- 1 valdis valdis 1556320 Nov 18 04:20 xemacs-info-21.4.15-10.i386.rpm
1608 -rw-r--r-- 1 valdis valdis 1635161 Nov 18 04:20 xemacs-nox-21.4.15-10.i386.rpm
19372 -rw-r--r-- 1 valdis valdis 19805276 Oct 20 14:12 xemacs-sumo-20040818-2.noarch.rpm
11796 -rw-r--r-- 1 valdis valdis 12058332 Oct 20 14:12
xemacs-sumo-el-20040818-2.noarch.rpm
2504 -rw-r--r-- 1 valdis valdis 2552216 Oct 20 14:12
xemacs-sumo-info-20040818-2.noarch.rpm
If we decide we want to rename it, we need to make sure that those 3 sumo RPMs
pick up the proper Obsoletes: tags when it gets renamed, and chase down any
Requires: tags in other RPMs (possibly packaged by people other than RedHat).
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8 comments
6 participants
participants (6)
-
Adrian Aichner -
Ben Wing -
Norbert Koch -
Stephen J. Turnbull -
Steve Youngs -
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