2:54 p.m.
Martin Buchholz <martin(a)xemacs.org> writes:
When help conflicts with deleting backwards, deletion has to win,
since it is the more important operation, and f1 is available on
almost all ttys for getting help.
Wow. That's an incredibly aggressive assumption. The fact that F1
exists has next to no relation to whether it is available. For me, my
entire set of Fx keys is bound to an assortment of random xterm
functions via Xdefaults; none of Fx generates a standard character
sequence that gets to the application running in the xterm. That is,
if one wishes to discuss "more important operations," I consider the
ability of my xterm to provide font-switching, personalized canned
character sequences, and selection insertions to be far more important
operations than having two flavors of character deletion, a capability
I don't recall ever having wanted.
8:03 p.m.
New subject: XEmacs 21 /vs./ my keyboard: I want my DEL back
Karl Kleinpaste writes:
Martin Buchholz <martin(a)xemacs.org> writes:
> When help conflicts with deleting backwards, deletion has to win,
> since it is the more important operation, and f1 is available on
> almost all ttys for getting help.
Wow. That's an incredibly aggressive assumption.
I don't think so. It was only the prevalence of DEC VTxxx
terminals that kept Stallman from being pulled apart like a
roasted chicken when he introduced the ridiculous C-h binding
for help. Even then there were installations (like mine)
where other types of terminals were used where the default
help key binding sucked dog bones. It is pretty fundamental
that the key at the upper-right delete a character backward.
Any other behavior will make the user think the designer of
the editor is insane or completely out of touch with reality
(which is arguably the same thing).
The fact that F1 exists has next to no relation to whether it
is available. For me, my entire set of Fx keys is bound to an
assortment of random xterm functions via Xdefaults; none of Fx
generates a standard character sequence that gets to the
application running in the xterm.
Yes. I use the F-keys for window manager functions. Even if F1
isn't available for help, deleting a character backward is more
important than popping up help.
That is, if one wishes to discuss "more important
operations,"
I consider the ability of my xterm to provide font-switching,
personalized canned character sequences, and selection
insertions to be far more important operations than having two
flavors of character deletion, a capability I don't recall
ever having wanted.
I think you're changing the subject. Martin's point was that
deleting backward must supersede the help function if they are in
conflict. I think this is a basic mandate, lest we be deemed
insane by the users. Prior to the latest round of changes, we
were not reliably getting this done.
It doesn't matter much that we (old-time UNIX users) don't want a
key that deletes a character forward. I agree with you: C-d is
fine for that purpose and that is what I use. But the rest of
the world apparently wants that forward-delete key. I'm not very
interested in enticing the rest of the world to use XEmacs, but
I've been outvoted. And resistance is futile, anyway.
7:28 p.m.
New subject: XEmacs 21 /vs./ my keyboard: I want my DEL back
>>>> "Karl" == Karl Kleinpaste
<karl(a)justresearch.com> writes:
Karl> Martin Buchholz <martin(a)xemacs.org> writes:
> When help conflicts with deleting backwards, deletion has to
win,
> since it is the more important operation, and f1 is available on
> almost all ttys for getting help.
Karl> Wow. That's an incredibly aggressive assumption. The fact that F1
Karl> exists has next to no relation to whether it is available. For me, my
Karl> entire set of Fx keys is bound to an assortment of random xterm
Karl> functions via Xdefaults; none of Fx generates a standard character
Karl> sequence that gets to the application running in the xterm. That is,
Karl> if one wishes to discuss "more important operations," I consider the
Karl> ability of my xterm to provide font-switching, personalized canned
Karl> character sequences, and selection insertions to be far more important
Karl> operations than having two flavors of character deletion, a capability
Karl> I don't recall ever having wanted.
I'm sorry, but your desire to only ever delete text in one direction
puts you in a rapidly shrinking minority. It is the goal of
configurable software like XEmacs to make users like you happy, but
not without some effort on your part to change the default behavior.
It is of course your perfect right to run your xterm in non-standard
fashion. However, if you do so, you have to accept responsibility for
informing your applications of your changes. You cannot expect your
applications to work out of the box with the function keys that you
have.
Note that if you have TERM=xterm, and you have changed the sequences
sent by your function keys, you are lying to your computer. The
`proper' thing to do is for you to create your own terminfo/termcap
entry `xterm-karl' and set up your accounts to use this terminfo
entry. It is not likely you will actually want to do this work, but
tty applications might actually work with your function keys if you
did. For just XEmacs, you can frob function-key-map.
Martin
8:25 p.m.
New subject: XEmacs 21 /vs./ my keyboard: I want my DEL back
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 11:28:31 -0800 (PST)
From: Martin Buchholz <martin(a)xemacs.org>
I'm sorry, but your desire to only ever delete text in one direction
puts you in a rapidly shrinking minority.
What a load of crap. Karl never expressed a ``desire to only ever
delete text in one direction'', that's your spin/twist on things.
I support Karl's position regarding the DEL key and I delete in both
directions. Control-D deletes forward, thank you very much. I think
what we desire is to avoid having people fix what ain't broke. I
don't particularly want everything to work Microsoft-style.
If you have developed a desire to have DEL key change directions, I
can take a good guess as to where you might have picked that up.
While it puts you in a majority of sorts, you could also join a
majority by adopting the notion that surfing the web and sending mail
-- er, I mean eeee-mail -- is all there is to computing.
I doubt that the people who can't handle things working the way things
worked before the Microsoft Borg came along are likely to be big fans
of any sort of emacs anyway. However, I suspect that most folks that
are already using emacs can get along just fine without DEL doing a
180.
Rick
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3 comments
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participants (4)
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Karl Kleinpaste -
Kyle Jones -
Martin Buchholz -
Rick Campbell