5:50 p.m.
Ar an fichiú lá de mí Márta, scríobh Adrian Aichner:
IIRC, it was decided we should be compatible, so that Emacs users
giving XEmacs a try should not change to make lots of changes to get a
familiar look.
I’m not sure what you mean there.
For example, I just did a global regexp replace ^XEmacs -> Emacs in my
~/.Xdefaults, reloaded the X resources, and started a GNU Emacs from the
middle of February. The only resources I could see that it honoured--and
I’ve set most of them--were those for the Lucid menubar, and the geometry
settings. So people moving from GNU Emacs have to write new resources
anyway, if that’s how they prefer to customise the appearance of their
Emacs. The resources for the two programs are incompatible, and getting more
so as time goes on.
Will your patch change this?
Also, the emotive environent variable name
BRANDING_IS_FOR_THE_INSECURE, while funny at first, will be a curse
for those who try to help others in comp.emacs*.
I’m proposing that this mechanism just be available for a major release or
some equally short period, and should only be used by people who have been
using XEmacs for years, and don’t have the time right now to move over their
X resources. Newbies should be directed to the sample .Xresources file.
In that context, anyone we’re advising to use it should be well able to cut
and paste into their shell initialisation files, or the Win32 environment
dialog box.
I'd prefer a more "technical" name.
Could you suggest one? Nothing sprang to my mind as more appropriate, and
that one is at least a little memorable.
--
“I, for instance, am gung-ho about open source because my family is being
held hostage in Rob Malda’s basement. But who fact-checks me, or Enderle,
when we say something in public? No-one!” -- Danny O’Brien
6:30 p.m.
New subject: [Q] Re: [PATCH] Prefer XEmacs as X11 application class and as default frame name
Aidan Kehoe <kehoea(a)parhasard.net> writes:
Ar an fichiú lá de mí Márta, scríobh Adrian Aichner:
> IIRC, it was decided we should be compatible, so that Emacs users
> giving XEmacs a try should not change to make lots of changes to get a
> familiar look.
I~m not sure what you mean there.
For example, I just did a global regexp replace ^XEmacs -> Emacs in my
~/.Xdefaults, reloaded the X resources, and started a GNU Emacs from the
middle of February. The only resources I could see that it honoured--and
I~ve set most of them--were those for the Lucid menubar, and the geometry
settings. So people moving from GNU Emacs have to write new resources
anyway, if that~s how they prefer to customise the appearance of their
Emacs. The resources for the two programs are incompatible, and getting more
so as time goes on.
Ah, that is convincing enough for me.
> Will your patch change this?
>
> Also, the emotive environent variable name
> BRANDING_IS_FOR_THE_INSECURE, while funny at first, will be a curse
> for those who try to help others in comp.emacs*.
I~m proposing that this mechanism just be available for a major release or
some equally short period, and should only be used by people who have been
No, we cannot hand-pick our users :-)
using XEmacs for years, and don~t have the time right now to move
over their
X resources. Newbies should be directed to the sample .Xresources file.
In that context, anyone we~re advising to use it should be well able to cut
and paste into their shell initialisation files, or the Win32 environment
dialog box.
My point is that discussing BRANDING_IS_FOR_THE_INSECURE on #emacs,
#xemacs, comp.emacs, etc. will just trigger confrontation.
> I'd prefer a more "technical" name.
Could you suggest one? Nothing sprang to my mind as more
appropriate, and that one is at least a little memorable.
How about
XEMACS_USES_EMACS_FRAME_NAME
which even has 28 characters too :-)
--
Adrian Aichner
mailto:adrian＠xemacs.org
http://www.xemacs.org/
7:36 p.m.
New subject: [Q] Re: [PATCH] Prefer XEmacs as X11 application class and as default frame name
Ar an fichiú lá de mí Márta, scríobh Adrian Aichner:
My point is that discussing BRANDING_IS_FOR_THE_INSECURE on #emacs,
#xemacs, comp.emacs, etc. will just trigger confrontation.
I’m not sure why; when and if the patch is applied, it will be in a large
measure to strengthen XEmacs’ branding. If someone doesn’t the environment
variable name as self-deprecating in that context, they need to look a
little closer.
> > I'd prefer a more "technical" name.
>
> Could you suggest one? Nothing sprang to my mind as more
> appropriate, and that one is at least a little memorable.
How about XEMACS_USES_EMACS_FRAME_NAME which even has 28 characters too
:-)
It ignores that the environment variable affects the application class of
XEmacs, as well as its frame name, and it’s the application class that
will affect people’s X resources.
--
“I, for instance, am gung-ho about open source because my family is being
held hostage in Rob Malda’s basement. But who fact-checks me, or Enderle,
when we say something in public? No-one!” -- Danny O’Brien
8:11 a.m.
New subject: [Q] Re: [PATCH] Prefer XEmacs as X11 application class and as default frame name
>>>> "Aidan" == Aidan Kehoe
<kehoea(a)parhasard.net> writes:
Aidan> Ar an fichiú lá de mí Márta, scríobh Adrian Aichner:
> My point is that discussing BRANDING_IS_FOR_THE_INSECURE on
#emacs,
> #xemacs, comp.emacs, etc. will just trigger confrontation.
Aidan> I’m not sure why; when and if the patch is applied, it will be in a large
Aidan> measure to strengthen XEmacs’ branding. If someone doesn’t the environment
Aidan> variable name as self-deprecating in that context, they need to look a
Aidan> little closer.
You're missing the point: this name is obscure and will make the code
less maintainable.
Also, at the very least, this kind of heavy-duty user-visible change
will at least need an entry in etc/NEWS.
--
Cheers =8-} Mike
Friede, Völkerverständigung und überhaupt blabla
2:02 p.m.
New subject: [Q] Re: [PATCH] Prefer XEmacs as X11 application class and as default frame name
Ar an chéad lá is fiche de mí Márta, scríobh Michael Sperber:
>>>>> "Aidan" == Aidan Kehoe
<kehoea(a)parhasard.net> writes:
Aidan> Ar an fichiú lá de mí Márta, scríobh Adrian Aichner:
>> My point is that discussing BRANDING_IS_FOR_THE_INSECURE on #emacs,
>> #xemacs, comp.emacs, etc. will just trigger confrontation.
Aidan> I’m not sure why; when and if the patch is applied, it will be in
Aidan> a large measure to strengthen XEmacs’ branding. If someone doesn’t
Aidan> the environment variable name as self-deprecating in that context,
Aidan> they need to look a little closer.
You're missing the point: this name is obscure and will make the code
less maintainable.
Can you suggest a better name, that ideally describes what the change does?
Also, at the very least, this kind of heavy-duty user-visible change
will at least need an entry in etc/NEWS.
I can add that, sure.
--
“I, for instance, am gung-ho about open source because my family is being
held hostage in Rob Malda’s basement. But who fact-checks me, or Enderle,
when we say something in public? No-one!” -- Danny O’Brien
7:24 a.m.
New subject: [Q] Re: [PATCH] Prefer XEmacs as X11 application class and as default frame name
>>>> "Aidan" == Aidan Kehoe
<kehoea(a)parhasard.net> writes:
Aidan> Ar an chéad lá is fiche de mí Márta, scríobh Michael Sperber:
>> >>>> "Aidan" == Aidan
Kehoe <kehoea(a)parhasard.net> writes:
>>
Aidan> Ar an fichiú lá de mí Márta, scríobh Adrian Aichner:
>
> >> My point is that discussing BRANDING_IS_FOR_THE_INSECURE on #emacs,
> >> #xemacs, comp.emacs, etc. will just trigger confrontation.
>
Aidan> I’m not sure why; when and if the patch is applied, it will be in
Aidan> a large measure to strengthen XEmacs’ branding. If someone doesn’t
Aidan> the environment variable name as self-deprecating in that context,
Aidan> they need to look a little closer.
>
> You're missing the point: this name is obscure and will make the code
> less maintainable.
Aidan> Can you suggest a better name, that ideally describes what the change does?
As I understand your patch, how about
USE_EMACS_AS_DEFAULT_APPLICATION_CLASS
or some abbreviation of it?
On the technical side, I would just suggest a configure option to set
the application class instead.
--
Cheers =8-} Mike
Friede, Völkerverständigung und überhaupt blabla
11:16 a.m.
New subject: [Q] Re: [PATCH] Prefer XEmacs as X11 application class and as default frame name
Ar an dara lá is fiche de mí Márta, scríobh Michael Sperber:
As I understand your patch, how about
USE_EMACS_AS_DEFAULT_APPLICATION_CLASS
or some abbreviation of it?
Okay. That doesn’t totally describe what the environment variable does, but
it is the most important part.
On the technical side, I would just suggest a configure option to
set
the application class instead.
That leaves people installing from binaries or whose sysadmins install their
XEmacs out of luck.
--
“I, for instance, am gung-ho about open source because my family is being
held hostage in Rob Malda’s basement. But who fact-checks me, or Enderle,
when we say something in public? No-one!” -- Danny O’Brien
11:42 a.m.
New subject: [Q] Re: [PATCH] Prefer XEmacs as X11 application class and as default frame name
>>>> "ms" == Michael Sperber
<sperber(a)informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> writes:
ms> USE_EMACS_AS_DEFAULT_APPLICATION_CLASS
ms> On the technical side, I would just suggest a configure option
ms> to set the application class instead.
Let's not go there. We're not at all compatible, and haven't been for
a decade. If we're going to make the change, we should make it all
the way and just do it.
If we _must_ provide backward compatibility, I would suggest a -class
command-line option analogous to the Xt-standard -name option.
We could write a little program using xlib.el to snarf the relevant
Emacs resources and either append them to .Xresources or directly set
them on the root window using xrdb.
--
School of Systems and Information Engineering http://turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp
University of Tsukuba Tennodai 1-1-1 Tsukuba 305-8573 JAPAN
Ask not how you can "do" free software business;
ask what your business can "do for" free software.
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participants (4)
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Stephen J. Turnbull