9:54 p.m.
Michael Sperber writes:
I wish it were that simple: LC_ALL=XXX doesn't always influence
the
locale, notably on Windows and via EFS.
The complaints we get about this are not from Windows/EFS users (at
least not the majority; I don't remember any, but that may be a
symptom of incipient Alzheimer's or lack of an ITS). So maybe "all
locales" is too strong, but for dired of local file systems on POSIX
platforms, we should never see a "no file on this line" error in the
default configuration.
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10:11 a.m.
New subject: [Bug: 21.5-b28] XEmacs dired didn't work with FreeBSD ls
"Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen(a)xemacs.org> writes:
Michael Sperber writes:
> I wish it were that simple: LC_ALL=XXX doesn't always influence the
> locale, notably on Windows and via EFS.
The complaints we get about this are not from Windows/EFS users (at
least not the majority; I don't remember any, but that may be a
symptom of incipient Alzheimer's or lack of an ITS). So maybe "all
locales" is too strong, but for dired of local file systems on POSIX
platforms, we should never see a "no file on this line" error in the
default configuration.
How's this: I make this configurable (default: no locale-munging), we
push out a new version, which is supposedly much better with the
locales, and the first bug report we get about this, I turn the switch
and cut a new release?
--
Cheers =8-} Mike
Friede, Völkerverständigung und überhaupt blabla
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midnight
New subject: [Bug: 21.5-b28] XEmacs dired didn't work with FreeBSD ls
Michael Sperber writes:
How's this: I make this configurable (default: no
locale-munging), we
push out a new version, which is supposedly much better with the
locales, and the first bug report we get about this, I turn the switch
and cut a new release?
I'm not clear on what you mean. Locale handling is by definition
table-driven, and the table is extensible. So what "better with
locales" presumably means is that your date parser (are there other
relevant parsers?) can handle the standard formats in more locales,
but what are you gonna do if the Steganography locale decides to
define their date format as YMYMYDYD?
IIRC, you have a big-ball-of-mud regexp (or list thereof) that tries
to handle all known date formats. The conservative approach I want
(on POSIX systems) is a variable `dired-grokkable-locales' which
contains a list of regexps that match grokkable locales. If the
current locale matches an element of the list, don't frob `ls''s
locale, otherwise do so. (An adventurous user could simply push their
current locale on this list. The custom widget for this variable
should offer the current locale (if not in the list) as an explicit
option to the user.)
If you're really that confident that you've got almost all the locales
in actual use, we could do it the way you suggest. I would implement
the configuration to have a variable `dired-ls-locale' (maybe there's
a better name that doesn't discriminate against Windows). If nil,
don't frob the locale. If set, use that locale. The Custom widget
for the variable should contain a list of common locales that the user
might want (to approximate their own locale, or to substitute a
familiar locale). WDYT?
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7:16 a.m.
New subject: [Bug: 21.5-b28] XEmacs dired didn't work with FreeBSD ls
"Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen(a)xemacs.org> writes:
Michael Sperber writes:
> How's this: I make this configurable (default: no locale-munging), we
> push out a new version, which is supposedly much better with the
> locales, and the first bug report we get about this, I turn the switch
> and cut a new release?
I'm not clear on what you mean. Locale handling is by definition
table-driven, and the table is extensible. So what "better with
locales" presumably means is that your date parser (are there other
relevant parsers?) can handle the standard formats in more locales,
but what are you gonna do if the Steganography locale decides to
define their date format as YMYMYDYD?
"turn the switch and cut another release", meaning I force the locale to
POSIX. However, maybe there's another way:
IIRC, you have a big-ball-of-mud regexp (or list thereof) that tries
to handle all known date formats. The conservative approach I want
(on POSIX systems) is a variable `dired-grokkable-locales' which
contains a list of regexps that match grokkable locales.
OK, but is the format of the locale strings sufficiently portable, and
the corresponding output format of ls sufficiently consistent across
systems? In my experience, locale identifiers are wildly unportable
across platforms, but I can't really say I understand the issue deeply
at this point.
If you're really that confident that you've got almost all
the locales
in actual use, we could do it the way you suggest. I would implement
the configuration to have a variable `dired-ls-locale' (maybe there's
a better name that doesn't discriminate against Windows). If nil,
don't frob the locale. If set, use that locale. The Custom widget
for the variable should contain a list of common locales that the user
might want (to approximate their own locale, or to substitute a
familiar locale). WDYT?
That was my plan.
--
Cheers =8-} Mike
Friede, Völkerverständigung und überhaupt blabla
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8:56 p.m.
New subject: [Bug: 21.5-b28] XEmacs dired didn't work with FreeBSD ls
On 10/10/07, Michael Sperber <sperber(a)deinprogramm.de> wrote:
"Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen(a)xemacs.org> writes:
> Michael Sperber writes:
> I'm not clear on what you mean.
"turn the switch and cut another release", meaning I force the locale to
POSIX. However, maybe there's another way:
I'm asking "how did you implement 'better with locales'?"
> IIRC, you have a big-ball-of-mud regexp (or list thereof) that
tries
> to handle all known date formats. The conservative approach I want
> (on POSIX systems) is a variable `dired-grokkable-locales' which
> contains a list of regexps that match grokkable locales.
OK, but is the format of the locale strings sufficiently portable, and
the corresponding output format of ls sufficiently consistent across
systems?
No, they're not, your experience that identifiers are unportable is
quite representative. That's why I call it "conservative": because
more people will get POSIX than really need to. The point of this
proposal is to ensure that we only allow locales when we've explicitly
decided to.
> If you're really that confident that you've got almost
all the locales
> in actual use, we could do it the way you suggest. I would implement
> the configuration to have a variable `dired-ls-locale' (maybe there's
> a better name that doesn't discriminate against Windows). If nil,
> don't frob the locale. If set, use that locale. The Custom widget
> for the variable should contain a list of common locales that the user
> might want (to approximate their own locale, or to substitute a
> familiar locale). WDYT?
That was my plan.
OK, let's try that. On reflection, let's not go on a hair trigger
about defaulting to POSIX, either. Let's see how easily the users
find and use the variable (or the Customization) before defaulting to
something where they probably won't bother to try the "nice" variant
because POSIX is "good enough."
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2:48 p.m.
New subject: [Bug: 21.5-b28] XEmacs dired didn't work with FreeBSD ls
Stephen J. Turnbull skrev:
I'm not clear on what you mean. Locale handling is by
definition
table-driven, and the table is extensible. So what "better with
locales" presumably means is that your date parser (are there other
relevant parsers?) can handle the standard formats in more locales,
but what are you gonna do if the Steganography locale decides to
define their date format as YMYMYDYD?
If I remember correctly the idea is to ignore the month name in the ls
output. It is the start of the filename that is of most interest and if
you can get to that in a safe way without using localized info the
problem is solved. (Or lets say mostly solved for some of the locales ;-)
To solve this properly, for dired, I think that the binary should be
equipped with primitives (if they are not there already) in order to
produce the directory listing itself without the use of an external
program. All handling of locales would then be performed in XEmacs with
full control removing the need for complicated date parsing etc. This is
of course no solution for efs so the code still needs to be there.
Having said that I also acknowledge that changing dired in such a way
isn't an easy task.
Yours
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7:25 p.m.
New subject: [Bug: 21.5-b28] XEmacs dired didn't work with FreeBSD ls
Mats Lidell writes:
To solve this properly, for dired, I think that the binary should be
equipped with primitives (if they are not there already) in order to
produce the directory listing itself without the use of an external
program.
AFAIK this has been possible for pretty much as long as dired has
existed, but rejected because users often wish to tune the ls output
using ls options. Mike?
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5:07 p.m.
New subject: [Bug: 21.5-b28] XEmacs dired didn't work with FreeBSD ls
"Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen(a)xemacs.org> writes:
Mats Lidell writes:
> To solve this properly, for dired, I think that the binary should be
> equipped with primitives (if they are not there already) in order to
> produce the directory listing itself without the use of an external
> program.
AFAIK this has been possible for pretty much as long as dired has
existed, but rejected because users often wish to tune the ls output
using ls options. Mike
Exactly.
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Friede, Völkerverständigung und überhaupt blabla
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10:30 p.m.
New subject: [Bug: 21.5-b28] XEmacs dired didn't work with FreeBSD ls
>>>> Stephen J Turnbull <stephen(a)xemacs.org> writes:
Stephen> AFAIK this has been possible for pretty much as long as dired
Stephen> has existed, but rejected because users often wish to tune
Stephen> the ls output using ls options. Mike?
Well it should be configured in lisp instead of course ;-) It even
doesn't have to look like the ls output at all. I think there is a
need for a dired-ng!
Yours
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%% Mats
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12:37 a.m.
New subject: [Bug: 21.5-b28] XEmacs dired didn't work with FreeBSD ls
Mats Lidell writes:
>>>>> Stephen J Turnbull <stephen(a)xemacs.org>
writes:
Stephen> AFAIK this has been possible for pretty much as long as dired
Stephen> has existed, but rejected because users often wish to tune
Stephen> the ls output using ls options. Mike?
Well it should be configured in lisp instead of course ;-) It even
doesn't have to look like the ls output at all. I think there is a
need for a dired-ng!
What do you have in mind? Implementing some of the fancy stuff in
Apple's Finder might be cool, but I don't see a *need* personally.
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