Re: [AUCTeX-devel] [ELPA-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/elpa r312: Update AUCTeX ELPA package to the new 11.87 release.
2:39 p.m.
> On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 15:24:50 +0100, David Kastrup
<dak(a)gnu.org> wrote:
Tassilo Horn <tsdh(a)gnu.org> writes:
[snip]
Now XEmacs will only distribute package files that have been
assembled
by XEmacs tools in the XEmacs package tree.
This is correct. I wish it were
different, that there
existed a debian-like-alien tool which allowed to convert
one package into another one, like deb-->rpm
So the XEmacs packages that AUCTeX provides will work
fine, but you'll have to find, download and install
them manually instead of relying on the XEmacs
packaging system.
You can unpack it in ~/.xemacs/packages
or in
prefix/xemacs/site-packages
What will be provided in the XEmacs package
repositories consequently is something massaged
manually to the necessary layout, commonly with
mistakes and several years behind.
Well if their package manager were faster it should be a
question of days not years :'(
[snip]
The XEmacs compatibility code in the Lisp files itself is peanuts in
comparison. No point in removing that as far as I can see. However,
preview-latex has a somewhat more extensive compatibility setup. It
would be arguable not to place the prv-xemacs.el files in the ELPA
packaging at least.
That is your call to make.
Removing it from the source distribution would be
seriously unfair since it is technically complex enough that starting it
from scratch would be quite hard: that would be several man-months at
least from an experienced XEmacs programmer, and there are none as far
as I can see interested in AUCTeX.
Yes, please, do *not* remove it, that would be real nightmare
for Xemacs users.
Uwe Brauer
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1:25 a.m.
New subject: [AUCTeX-devel] [ELPA-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/elpa r312: Update AUCTeX ELPA package to the new 11.87 release.
Off-topic for emacs-devel. emacs-devel squelched.
Uwe Brauer writes:
I wish [...] that there existed a debian-like-alien tool which
allowed to convert one package into another one, like deb-->rpm
This is a red herring. The issue of what XEmacs distributes is
entirely the build environment. AUCTeX is building in an
idiosyncratic environment of whatever packages they have to hand,
XEmacs-distributed packages are built in a controlled environment.
XEmacs can't just use the AUCTeX build system, because it depends on
technology our users may not have installed (autoconf, at least).
OTOH, if you have a GNU/Linux system or Cygwin and wish to build an
XEmacs package from upstream sources, it's easy. The effort to build
some kind of converter would not be justified.
Well if their package manager were faster it should be a
question of days not years :'(
Uwe, this is nonsense. Distribution lag has nothing to do with the
package manager, either the Lisp part or the human part (if Norbert
were any faster, he'd be a time machine). As David says, the problem
is a lack of experienced developers willing to deal with the
difference in build systems. I greatly appreciate your efforts, but
they've been insufficient. I've spent some effort on this, but it's
not ready. It's not at all impossible, but will take time I don't
have at the moment.
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10:37 a.m.
New subject: [AUCTeX-devel] [ELPA-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/elpa r312: Update AUCTeX ELPA package to the new 11.87 release.
> On Thu, 06 Dec 2012 10:25:29 +0900, "Stephen J.
Turnbull" <stephen(a)xemacs.org> wrote:
Off-topic for emacs-devel. emacs-devel squelched.
Uwe Brauer writes:
> I wish [...] that there existed a debian-like-alien tool which
> allowed to convert one package into another one, like deb-->rpm
This is a red herring. The issue of what XEmacs distributes is
entirely the build environment.
Well may be, but I still feel it is a waste of resources to a
extend that the auctex team has developed its own Makefile
to generate a xemacs pkg, and we cannot use it!
> Well if their package manager were faster it should be a
> question of days not years :'(
Uwe, this is nonsense. Distribution lag has nothing to
do with the package manager, either the Lisp part or
the human part (if Norbert were any faster, he'd be a
time machine).
*Of course* it is nonsense!!! This was a lame intend of mine
to be self ironic. When I wrote "_package manager_" is was
thinking of myself since I am the person in charge of
upgrading the auctex xemacs pkg. Only when I read your reply
it crossed my mind that this term could refer to Norbert,
our package manager, who as you says does a terrific and
fast job. I am sorry, Norbert I owe you an apology.
As David says, the problem is a lack of experienced
developers willing to deal with the difference in build
systems. I greatly appreciate your efforts, but
they've been insufficient.
Yes this is correct. We should however put things into
context. Years ago auctex was in a frozen state of
development. Things changed when David stepped in and then I
asked to transform his efforts into the xemacs pkg system and
ended up doing it myself. Auctex has undergone some dramatic
changes, most notable the inclusion of preview latex. To
transform this last mayor change into our system proved for
me a nightmare which could only be resolved thanks to
Mats. However since a couple of months auctex development has
been slower. The actual version is 11.86, xemacs pkg
version is 11.85. I did not upgrade because I was too lazy,
did not see any request in the mailing list.., whatever excuse
I can make.
In any case although this is my fault I don't think this
difference is very dramatic, but I feel obliged to upgrade
in order to avoid that some day the auctex team decides to
drop xemacs support all together
Uwe
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10:45 a.m.
New subject: [AUCTeX-devel] [ELPA-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/elpa r312: Update AUCTeX ELPA package to the new 11.87 release.
Uwe Brauer <oub(a)mat.ucm.es> writes:
>> On Thu, 06 Dec 2012 10:25:29 +0900, "Stephen J.
Turnbull"
<stephen(a)xemacs.org> wrote:
> Off-topic for emacs-devel. emacs-devel squelched.
> Uwe Brauer writes:
>> I wish [...] that there existed a debian-like-alien tool which
>> allowed to convert one package into another one, like deb-->rpm
> This is a red herring. The issue of what XEmacs distributes is
> entirely the build environment.
Well may be, but I still feel it is a waste of resources to a
extend that the auctex team has developed its own Makefile
to generate a xemacs pkg, and we cannot use it!
It can be used for verification. As long as the upstream XEmacs package
_does_ work, you can't go wrong much by tweaking the XEmacs packaging
mechanism until it comes up with the same results.
been slower. The actual version is 11.86, xemacs pkg
version is 11.85. I did not upgrade because I was too lazy,
did not see any request in the mailing list.., whatever excuse
I can make.
I think there also was some delay due to AUCTeX switching to GPLv3+ and
XEmacs not being compatible with that at the time.
In any case although this is my fault I don't think this
difference is very dramatic, but I feel obliged to upgrade
in order to avoid that some day the auctex team decides to
drop xemacs support all together
The problem is more that I don't know anybody from the "AUCTeX team"
actively using or even checking XEmacs support, so there is a non-zero
probability that it will silently cease working at some point of time,
either due to AUCTeX changes or due to XEmacs changes.
--
David Kastrup
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8:15 a.m.
New subject: [AUCTeX-devel] [ELPA-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/elpa r312: Update AUCTeX ELPA package to the new 11.87 release.
Uwe Brauer writes:
>> On Thu, 06 Dec 2012 10:25:29 +0900, "Stephen J.
Turnbull" <stephen(a)xemacs.org> wrote:
I still feel it is a waste of resources to a extend that the auctex
team has developed its own Makefile to generate a xemacs pkg, and
we cannot use it!
For what value of "we"? *You* can use it in your personal
environment, and if it works for you, great. I have no objection to
third parties taking short cuts. But we can't, because Emacs Lisp
doesn't have packages, it only has features, which aren't versioned.
The point of the XEmacs package build system is that packages we
*distribute* are built in a controlled, consistent environment. Then
we can take responsibility for the bugs. The only reasonable way to
guarantee a consistent environment in Emacs Lisp is to build with a
specific version of the byte compiler (21.4 -- AFAIK it hasn't changed
since 21.4.0) and a specific checkout of Lisp libraries. Full stop,
end of story. GNU Emacs achieves this by simply distributing the
World with Emacs. We don't want to do that.
In practice, of course, there are slight variations possible for the
interim releases, but they get re-synched with every SUMO release.
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Uwe Brauer